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I've always used plastic shot cups but now want to go with the over powder and fiber wads. I've purchased a Pedersoli 12 ga. and would like to know if I should order 13 ga. wads? I have some 12 ga. wads and they're simply too big. I'm aware of the choke at the muzzle but these wads are still to big. One brand of my fiber wad is Blue & Gray, the others are so old I don't have a clue as to manufacturer. Any ideas?

Vic
 
I have a Pedersoli "Mortimer" and I too found it too hard to load with 12 gauge wads. I read in some Pedersoli literature concerning the Mortimer that " some shooters have found 13 gauge wads more satisfactory" or words to that effect I ordered 13 gauge wads fron TOW and they load as easy as the 12 gauge wads in a T/C New Englander. I am not familiar with other Pedersoli shotguns.
 
wads for differnt guns, and different types of chokes can be tricky, but for the guns ive shot ive found this has been generally true.. (4-5 black powder shotguns).. without choke use nitro card and fiber wads .. with jug choke also use nitro card and fiber wad over the powder.. when you go to constrictive chokes things start to change.. ive never used plastic wads becouse they fail with succesive shots when things get dirty, and especially when they get hot and dirty.. ive beaten some pretty good shots becouse thier gun stops patterning after 10 rounds.. most guys pattern for a couple shots and think thats all they need to do.. not so with bp in my situations.. if your shooting a choked gun that is a breach loader you also can use nitro card with fiber wad, but spacers of cork and lubed wool felt can be a big help for keeping bore clean as they are not wiped when loading, and to fill upp the load... when shooting muzzelloader with standard type choke usually a nitro card and lubed felt wads will work best.. if full choke you can gently fold the nitro card and slip by the choke, dont cram it edgewise as this is asking for blow by.. if getting blow by with one nitrocard use two and criss cross the fold.. i solved an old friend of mines 20 guage sxs extra full choke flintlock problem by telling him to use succesesive thinner nitro cards stacked over the powder so they could get by the tiny tight bore.. .. a standard 12 gauge load could be 90 grains 2fg ( three fg if you want velocity, and are quite experianced in very good strong gun, not damascus for instance).. dont use this as a beginner.. you must learn to automatically check load depth with ramrod on hand, and pull load with any type of abnormality.. this must be done in the field, on the practice range, and in the heat of the hunt.. you can ruin a gun or worse.. back to the load, 90 grains 2fg, nitro card, two 1/4 inch wool felt wads lubed with tc lube(bore butter heated in a pan, wool felt dipped into hot lube) pack this tight and put in shot, i like knickle plated shot, 90 grains equivelent in powder measure would be fine in choked gun to start, then put over shot card.. use two overshot cards if your finding that the load is working up the barrel from recoil after shooting one side of a double barrel.. repack unshot load after shooting one shot, take cap off first, lightly pack unshot load intil seated firm, and reload shot barrel and recap.. the powder with proper nitro card wont workup but the dencer shot will.. the over shot cards can be put in with the pressed out ridge up, two of them like this will hold pretty well.. if the load coloumn is too short, for instance the shot column is light for a youngser, the nitro card can tip, and give you a blown pattern, so you must make the column longer, buy ading cork or something that wont fit tight inbetween the nitro card and the felt wads.,, the extra nitro card will use up power, (6-8 cards is a blank load).. felt wads may not pack the powder properly or something but your gun can be checked to see what works best, that is how many felt wads to use... , but something like cork works best for me.. pack the powder, not the shot for best patterns.. vary powder and shot and test on pattern board. different temperatures will give different patterns with black powder so check patterns in hunting temperatures.. one problem with black powder choked guns is the pattern is too tight,, most modern gunners are overchoked.. you want a good even pattern that is dense enought with large enought shot for the game your after.. remember you need to use slightly larger shot than modern lead loads becouse of lower velocities in black powder.. ( this doesnt count if your up close and personal, which i feel is best, with more open chokes) dave
 
GREAT post fffg! :thumbsup:
I agree with just about 100% of everything you posted. As I've said many times, it takes far more time to work up a load for a shot gun than it does a load for a rifle.
I've never had any consistant patterns with plastic cups either...or any other shot cups for that matter. They'll shoot good a couple times then blow the patern way off center or make one big hole in the pattern board. just too inconsistant for my requirements.
I borrowed a M/L shotgunt with modern ckoked bore before. That broke me real quick of wanting one. They work great for breech loaders, but it's such a pain getting the wads started down the barrel. Once you tear up or deform the wad geting it past the choke restiction it give inconsistant results again......
Jug choke is most forgiving in my experience,and the most effective, but you still have to do a lot of pattern work .
 
I use the heavy nitro cards, but I also use a short starter to get them started. They seem to scrape the barrel clean so that I can load all day long hunting without ever swabbing. I don't use any lube at all with them. No cushion either. Heavy nitro card over powder, shot, and thin over shot card. With lead shot the gun patterns almost too tight. I don't use the full tube ever with lead, even for turkeys. I hunted doves loaded that way this year without ever swabbing the barrel.
 
Welp...lots of good info in these posts, but what about the 13 ga. wads as opposed to the 12 ga. in Pedersoli doubles? NHunter addressed that.....most of the rest I agree with or already knew but it never hurts to review.

Vic
 
i think what they are talking about mike, is using smaller fiber wads to get by the constricted choke.. if it works it works and that is all there is to it.. but without patterning, and patterning loads at shot number one #10 and #20 with the load your using,in the temperatures you hunting at, your not going to know if it is working right.. the best part of lubed felt wads ( they dont work well at all with cylinder bore, or jug choke) is that they soften the fouling.. first the nitro card scrapes the bore,, the oversized lubed felt wads lube the bore, and the (after the shot) over shot card should get the bore pretty clean if your doing it right.. one thing to notice in a good load is that after loading the end of the bore is shiny/ wet looking, and not crusted up with hard fouling.. a shot gun can shoot, with the loading cleaning the bore to the muzzel all day long if loaded right.. dave..
 
Hey dave..

I'll be the first to admit I shoot handguns and rifles at least 25-1 to shotguns so I'm not nearly as well versed with smoothbores. You mentioned temperature at which one is hunting. Temperature will change how a shotgun patterns also? It definitely has an effect on rifle and handgun shooting, especially at longer ranges, but I never thought of it effecting shotgun patterns. Does it effect pattern in a predictable way or is it random?

Vic
 
Would some of you experienced smoothbore shot shooters please look at the thread above and post your thoughts on which is best...the Irish or English type shot despenser? And why you suggest the one you do?

Many thanks for some experienced input :bow:.
 
in black powder it all matters.. when i was a serious ice fisherman looking for big trout, i would set my drags quite light early in the cold morning and set them tighter as it warmed up.. at a single setting the line could snap when it was very cold, and the fish would take off with a loose spool when it warmed up.. when i was a fanatic shotgun shooter i would use 5 grains more for the first shot to keep patterns optimun then the lessor for succesive shots becouse the fouling would increase pressures.. even with modern guns my 12 gauge sxs shoots much better over 70 degrees, the extra velocity and better patterns pops the clays much better.. .. . ill go thru my smoothbore loads at differeing temperatures to give you an idea.. this is for ducks..... i have data for smoothbore from literally hundreds of patterns.. a smoothbore needs all the help it can get, a choked gun is not anywhere near as particular. as stated above a good choked gun will probably work well around 90/90, with a little tweeking.... all of these are done with penetration tests, in each 20 degrees temp, with 8 shot 6 shot, 5 shot, number 4 bismuth... as i said ill give you bismuth loads for my 16 guage 42 inch barrel swamped chambers smoothbore....... i take that back ive got trap loads for hot weather and bismuth loads for cold weather as i dont shoot trap at 0 degrees and i dont shoot ducks as 80 degrees.. here goes ...80-90 degrees -72 grains 3f,nitro card, glob of tc lube, 1/2 inch fiber wad,90 gr equivelent 8 nickle shot,over shot card, yields 41 percent pattern good at 10 yards behind trap thrower,(with 5 1/2 knickle shot has 100 percent cambells soup can pennetration one side 40 yards)......... 70 degrees 72/90 umber 8 shot 100 percent can pennetration..............60 degrees 72 gr 3f, 90 gr equivelent number 8 knickle shot ,notes say nothing without buffer, is effective over 35 yards on clays without buffer.. ...........then it swithces to bismuth,,,, 75 grains 3fg. nitro card, glob tclube, 1/2 inch fiber wad, 110 grains equivelent number 4 bismuth, over shot card.. (notes recomend to use buffer load for optimum pattern)..............30 degrees, 85 gr 3f,110 gr number 4 bismuth yields 50 percent pattern without cup.noes say use buffer load from 20 degrees and colder.......... 20 degrees, using paper cup for theshot ,,, 80 gr 3f, 125 gr 4 bismuth, use typing paper cup for bismuth,at 50 yards a large campellsoup can had 6 pellets hit, 3of them pennetration, 2 edge hits (glances) .. on another page's notes using this type load, "85 gr 3f, 110 bismuth, 16ga, yr 2000,,ducks under 35 yards pretty well taken care of,over 40yards needs work,, 2/3 ducks one day 12 degrees,,lost bird was 40-50 yards............ now it gets more complicated.. .... 10 degrees, 80 3f, 125 gains bismuth, typing paper cup and 35 grains buffer equivelent ( mulit metal plastic buffer from balistic products), 51 percent pattern, 6 hits campells soup can 50 yards.. the four quarters of pattern in this temp, with this load in 30 inch circle 40 yards was top left-27, top right-17, lower left-23, lower right-20, ,......... 0 degrees 90 3fg 120 equivelent 4 bismuth, wax paper cup, 35 grains equivelent buffer, 53 percent pattern at 40 yards pattern 23 22 15 25, it looks like i used to use two 1/8 inch wool felt wads impregnated wtih tc lube under the fiber card with this load,, and i show no nitro card, but would try both on pattern board to be sure before hunting in this temp again.. its been a long time since ive shot at 0 degrees.. but at 0 degrees even tc lubed wool felt wads are hard and the lube wont effect powder... your a black powder cartridge shooter so you know what testing/compression/ founling/ velocity is all about.. with a rifle you basically have to get the velocity up to the optimum for twist rate for the bullet to stablilize.. with black powder shotgun your looking at lubrication problems, fouling problems (remember no blow tube), velocity problems changeing patterns, reducing pennetration, etc etc.. so its all done on the pattern board, and check pennetration on a campells soup can for pellet size on duck sized critters.. balance the load for distance and pattern density.. ive found three body hits with good pennetration is proper for cold weather shotgunning.. if you have a dog you can go for wing hits, but with single shot smooth bore wing hits and no dog, youd better be a good runner or swimmer for ducks.. your gun must be lubed to keep fouling soft, as it gets colder unlubed fouling is rock hard.. so more and more lube is needed as it gets cold.. tc lube must be kept in shirt pocket or it will be like a rock. :) dave.. ,,
 
i tie or sew a leather shoelace into my shooting bag and put first (with enough length to load gun) the powder measure, then shot measure further out on the line.. .. and then i need a buffer measure in the bag for cold weather.. the measures are set for the game im after depending on size of shot and temperature, in the morning before i leave. with ducks, geese, phesant, clays , the the snake measure wouldnt work for me.. if your hunting for pheasant or single bird in nice weather you should be able to work up a load where it would work fine..
 
Thank ye kindly fer all the info Mr. dave! After reading your post I believe it was easier working up a load for a German double rifle in 43 Mauser for which all I had was caliber and the old military load data. The military load data does not make for an accurate load from two barrels keyed to one stock.

I'm not a waterfowler but I'm confident your heavier loads would make for a dandy turkey load. It's also warmer during turkey season here in Missouri than it is in Montana during duck/goose season. I used to live in NW Wyoming so I have a pretty good idea whereof you speak regarding temp. and it's effect on lubes. Old friends and neighbors tell me they've had -30+ F. already this year.

Thank you for that post. I'm grateful and as soon as my 13 ga. wads arrive I have some enjoyable work to do!

Vic
 
My personal preferemce is the Irish spout, nothing realy sientific I just find it more convenient to me.

Toomuch
 
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