Opinions on which gun is better?

[OutdoorsNole]

I have a question that I'm hoping the majority will agree with to help me make my decision in buying my first muzzleloader, a flintlock. I mainly just bowhunt now but what to try something different. I'm going to go shoot with a guy that lives nearby that is huge into collecting, hunting, and shooting them and I'm hoping to learn everything that I need. I am trying to get some help to see which gun is best suitable for the things I intend to use it for though.

I mainly hunt deer with hogs mixed in as much as possible whenever I'm in an area where they're at. The majority of my shots are 20-80 yards with a few places that I hunt being around 100 or more which I'll probably carry a rifle anyways. I also want something to just have fun and learn with that the range. I'll also be shooting prb's mostly and don't really intend on shooting anything else out of it.

These are my choices. I have a bass pro shops gift card so the gun will be coming from there.

Link

Sports classic design and styling. .50 caliber; 28'' blued barrel with 1-in-48'' twist; Lite Optic sights; all-weather select hardwood stock. Overall length: 44-1/2''. Weight: 7-7/8 lbs. $319.00

Traditions Muzzleloaders include:

* Walnut finish stocks
* Brass embellishments and inlays, butt plates
* Octagonal blued barrels
* Wooden ramrods

Link

.50 caliber with a 33-1/2'' blued barrel, 1-in-66'' twist, a single trigger, and fixed-blade sights. All-weather select hardwood stock with a walnut finish. Overall length: 49''. Weight: 7 lbs. $329.00

Features:

* Walnut finish stocks
* Fixed tang and hook breech models
* Brass embellishments and inlays, butt plates
* Octagonal blued barrels
* Wooden ramrods

Then here is the same gun, just $30 cheaper.
This authentic replica of the classic Kentucky Rifle is true to the last detail. It combines good looks, economy, shootability, and a high level of accuracy. Features an engraved, case-hardened lock, complete with authentic V-type mainspring for fast, sure hammer action. The rifle comes with a complete lifetime mechanical warranty and detailed instructions. 1 in 66'' twist. 49" total length. $299.00



I appreciate any help from you guys. I lurk around here a lot and don't understand half the things that are talked about. A modern inline is in the back of my mind, basically because of the accuracy and longer range to hunt with and I'm used to scope on a gun, but I'm pretty sure that I'm set on a flintlock.

I'll add this gun because I've looked over at it a few times. I'm not sure about the .32 though. I know it's small game and I'd love to shoot some squirrels with it and the guy that I'm going to shoot with as killed hogs with a .32. A regular bullet that is .32 will knock just about anything down, but is it that big of a difference being that it is a PRB? This is the gun.

Link

Small-game rifle comes in .32 cal. for great hunting fun. Long, lean rifle personifies all the positive features of a long rifle and at the same time gives you ease of carrying and quick shouldering. Double set triggers for ultimate accuracy. Fixed-tang breech for easy take-down. Has a 32" blued, 1 in 48" twist, 6-3/4 lbs., 49" total length, octagonal barrel with fixed blade sights. Brass appointments. Hardwood ramrod. Imported. $349

 

[Dphar]

Cheap flintlocks are rarely a bargain.
Note that a good lock alone retails for about 120 buck now so one cannot expect much from a $300 gun.
I would look at some of the low end custom guns on the Track of the Wolf site or some of the other ML sites. A bad flintlock is not something the neophyte needs.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

A .32 cal. round ball weighs about the same as a .22 long rifle bullet- approx. 40 grains. You don't want to be shooting wild boar with it unless you can shoot it through the ear, for a brain shot. Anything less, and you just have an even angrier hog on your hands, and an empty gun! I recommend hunters use conicals on wild boar, simply because the conicals will kill faster and surer than any round ball. I have killed a wild boar with my .50 but it took more than one shot. Two guys with me were using round balls in their .54 and .75 caliber rifles, and they both also took two shots to put the boars down for the count. None of us were happy with the performance of our round ball on wild boar. All of us have killed deer, before and since, with the same guns and loads.

I think you want a gun with a longer barrel than 28 inches, even though that sounds long to you now. 34-38 inches is going to serve you better. If you buy the .50, chose a barrel with a 1:48" rate of twist. That way, you can also find short conicals, like the Lee R.E.A.L. slug that will shoot accurately with that ROT.(Lee Precision Products . Use real black powder, and stay away from the substitutes. You can shoot either cast or swaged balls, but cast balls will probably cost you less. Stick with patching material that measures .015"-.020" thick in that gun. Use a good lube.

Black Powder hunting is a disease, and you are fairly warned right now, before you become one of us! :rotf: Many of us were just like you are now, hunting with something else, like a bow and arrow, and then began to be interested in ML guns as a way to extend our hunting season. At least that is what we told our domestic supervisor.

" More meat in the freezer, honey...."

The same reasoning works most of the time, I might add, when you want to buy that squirrel rifle:

" Gee, I don't want to shoot a squirrel with this BIG deer rifle, honey, so I need something smaller that won't destroy all the edible meat!..."

Now that you have an idea of how to deal with " She who must be obeyed, " go buy one of those guns. :thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

I agree with everything Paul says. I recently scored a really inexpensive flint smoothbore for $750, I don't think that you will get much for less.

If you are going Boar hunting, the bigger the caliber the better. The .32 that you mention is shooting one single buckshot at a time, not much of a madhog stopper.

Many Klatch

 

[boar]

I agree with Dan and Paul.Of the 3 I would go with no1.One becuase it has the set triggers. My first gun was a TC 54 hawken. I killed my first deer with it.Max-ball,110grs 2ff, this load also dropped a hog in Tenn dead in his tracks for my buddy. Killed bunch of groundhogs with it using 45grs 2ff and RB. If I was shooting a hog with a 32 I would be in a tree. I own two. Being your first flintlock I recomend the set triggers as they are fast and will help you on the flinch part. When I go from cap to flint, when I pull trigger I count so I don't pull off to right. I have 4 flinters. My best is a L&R lock, I have shot a kitchen match off with it in a match. To tell the difference I could show you all my locks and cock them you will see a big difference on how far they are from the frizzen when they are cocked.The L&R will the smallest space, hence it has the fastest lock time. It is like shooting a caplock. My first flinter was a CVA kentucky 45 a kit gun I bought for 90.00. The first thing I killed with it was a groundhog. I killed it with one shot. My first squirrel with it took 5 shots, this squirrel must of had my name on him. The reason I missed him was I would move as the lock was to slow, it had a long travel space. I sold it for 100.00. So it payes to get a good lock. Hope this helps. Dilly

 

[Trench]

I'm a nephyte myself and started with a Traditions Hawken. It does shoot straight and I've had not had any problems with the barrel. It's hard to know to want at this stage. I've always found that no matter what firearm class we're talking, the first one we buy is rarely our ideal gun. We will have always done something a little different had we known.
The lock on the Traditions has been hit and miss for some. Miss for me. Had to replace it. The primer would fall out of the pan with the frizzen closed. That's probably not something you want to happen right before you take a shot at a boar. However, you can check the initial fit of the lock for any gaps if it's going to be store bought.
I have leanred now that custom is really the only way to go if you can afford $1000 or more. However, there are PLENTY of satisfied customers of production guns and I'd put myself among them...once I made the fixes.

 

[BEP]

Nole,

Welcome to the forum. There is a wealth of info here and many helpful members.

Not knowing your financial limits, I'll answer your origional question.

First of all, all of your links lead to percussion rifles, not flintlocks. In an inexpensive shooter that might not be all bad. There's nothing quite like shooting a reliable flintlock but in your price range that isn't always the case. If you read posts on this forum, some folks swear by them while others swear at them. It varies.Traditions firearms are made in Ardessa, Spain, where CVA sidelocks, Jukar and several other brands came from. Many folks have had great luck with these flintlocks; others not so well. So your percussion choices might be a good way to go.

Of the three that you listed I would say that the first one is your best choice for your intended use. Hog hunting can be in some pretty thick stuff and the shorter barrel makes it easier to handle and maneuver. The 1 in 48" twist will work okay to stabilize a heavier slug like the Lee REAL bullet in that caliber. I would never get the last rifle that you listed for your purpose; sounds like you weren't really serious about it anyway.

Muzzleloading is very addicting. You're going to have a great time. As questions arise and challenges present themselves just come to these forums for help and answers. Someone always seems to have a solution to anything that comes up. And we all enjoy reading about folks successes and great experiences. Which you will have. So good luck and have fun.

sneezy

 

Are you limited to those three guns for any reason? For nearly the same money you could get a .50 Lyman Great Plains rifle and be loaded for anything you hunt. As Paul said, a .32 is ballistically like a .22LR/.22mag at close ranges, a little weak for boars...I have heard good reports on the little Crockett .32--it is certainly the best looking of any of the Traditions rifles...

P.S. there is nothing wrong with selecting a percussion hunting rifle--you'll hear discouraging words from some flintlock fans, ignore them and shoot what you want. Percussions are more reliable in all weather and make great hunting guns.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I recommend you start with a percussion hunting rifle. The best bargain on the market is the Lyman Trade Rifle, which Midsouth shooters supply lists for under $250. They are very well built, have the "compromise twist" of 1-48" for both round balls with light loads and conical bullets with heavy powder charges. Much better quality than anything from "Traditions". Then if you later feel like going to a custom flint rifle you may find you still like the Lyman percussion for hog hunting. Or if you feel like selling the Lyman you won't lose much money on it.

 

[MikeChapin]

I guess my biggest question is do the rifles you want come in flint. The ones you showed are in percussion.

I do know the kentucky type comes in flint. The .32 does not. Don't know about the half stock .50.

The Crocket only comes in percussion as far as I know. Paul is right about the .32. What you would end up doing is hunting boar with a single shot .22 mag. Not something I would want to try. Also most state laws would preclude it from big game hunting as being too small.

Of the three I would go with number one. With a light load you will get great target accuracy and a stiffer load will give accuracy and power for hunting. I have always used a PRB for hunting and have shot a lot of antelope, deer and elk with them. Most of the fun of hunting with black powder is getting within 100 yards of the animal and taking a well placed shot.

Getting a cheaper flintlock is kind of a manure shoot. I have had many that worked fine and others that were a exercise in frustration. Myself I would not recommend that a person starting out get a cheap flintlock. You might get lucky and have a great time but you could also get something that could sour you on the whole experience.

 

[shmrck1]

there is nothing wrong with selecting a percussion hunting rifle--you'll hear discouraging words from some flintlock fans, ignore them and shoot what you want. Percussions are more reliable in all weather and make great hunting guns.

Nole,
You have received some great info. from some
knowledgeable folks.IMO
snake-eyes:hmm:

 

[Mike Brooks]

These are my choices. I have a bass pro shops gift card so the gun will be coming from there.

Given those choices I'd get a new fishing pole. :haha:

 

[Okwaho]

Mike,although I agree with you, I must say that you do have a way with words.
Tom Patton

 

[redwing]

Mike, you know better than that. A well made flinter with a good lock is very reliable. A rifle with a Chambers lock and an English Rock will fire in about any weather.
Those off shore cap guns can be D***iffey at best. Like Chicken man said, a fish'in pole is more reliable. :cursing:

 

[Robert Egler]

Well, I have the Traditions Hawken .50 in flintlock, your first gun choice. I like it.

No, it isn't the best gun in the world. No, it isn't very PC. I don't go to reenactments, so PC isn't a big issue for me anyway. (It's kind of what I call "Period Appropriate", meaning it looks more or less correct for the vague time period it's supposed to represent). I'd love to have a custom flintlock, but with 2 kids at university, one of whom we just bought a new car, I don't have $1000 (or $500, for that matter) to spend on a gun. I can either wait until I do have that kind of money available, in which case I won't be shooting BP for a couple of years, or I could get a lower end gun that is acceptable, recognizing its limits.

The Traditions has performed very well for me. Some people seem to have had problems with the lock, but my lock is fine. The fit and finish of the gun overall is fine. Not like a custom gun, but quite acceptable to me, others may have more demanding standards. I had a CVA Hawken years ago, and the Traditions version is much better finished. At 50 yards I get groups of 3 inches or so with patched round ball.

It doesn't like the BP substitutes, and since no one within 2 hours drive of my house carries actual BP :cursing: , I have to order it, and that's a bit of a pain, but I think not liking fake BP is common with flintlocks.

So, for what it's worth (remember, this is free advice! :grin: ), I think the Traditions Hawken is a good gun in its price range.

 

Mike, you know better than that. A well made flinter with a good lock is very reliable. A rifle with a Chambers lock and an English Rock will fire in about any weather.
Those off shore cap guns can be D***iffey at best. Like Chicken man said, a fish'in pole is more reliable. :cursing:

I own a half dozen flintlocks and two caplocks. I have locks by all the best makers. I stand by my comment. Also, I was not comparing the traditions lock with any other lock, just percussion vs flint in general. Flintlocks have become a fad. Flintlocks are necessary for certain reenactors, etc for their time period. I saw the same snobbery in fly fishing. I used to frequent a certain fly fishing site--fly fishing was once my favorite sport--but I tired of the tirades against other types of gear and fishing. There is much less difference bewteen percussion guns and flint guns than between fly rods and spinning rods. I love my flintlocks, but to this day when I want to reliably hit what I am aiming at every time with a minimum of fuss, I pull out my old trusty caplock longrifle [that I built myself]. My advice to anyone getting into muzzleloading primarily to hunt is to get a caplock. Flintlocks may have lasted 200 years essentially unchanged, but when caplocks came out they took over fast--there was a reason for that. The caplock's survival time was shortened by the pretty rapid development of the cartridge--an advance huried along by the self-contained primer concept....

 

P.S. all you have to do is read the period accounts to find the numerous (very numerous) reports of flintlocks failing in battle or in the hunt--a "flash in the pan" was so common as to become a catch phrase we still use today. Caplocks cured most of that. If you want to play Daniel Boone, you need a flinter. If you want to play Davy Crockett--he owned BOTH [his "pretty Betsy" was a caplock].

 

[boar]

Heres how to tell if the prime will fall out of the pan. Take some cigarette papers with you and open frizzen,insert paper,close frizzen and see if it will hold the paper. My best lock(L&R) will hold a paper. No prime will fall out of it. Dilly

 

[Jumpshot]

Given those choices I'd get a new fishing pole. :haha:

Great way to help a newbie choose his first rifle! :thumbsup:



The common thread within the threads speaks for itself. :shake:


OutdoorsNole,
if you want a caplock, the cheaper guns will do. If you want a flinter, a better option would be to save up a bit more and get a Lyman GPR (a Trade Rifle is also a good option and less expensive than the GPR). The lock is better quality and will generally perform better. Depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend.

 

[Vaino]

You also have a way w/ words. Ditto, ditto and ditto......Fred