Paper Patching Enfields

[Tower75]

Hi Guys,

Brand you member here. Nice lookin' forum.

Apologies if this has been discussed to death. I've tried having a quick search but cannot locate my answers.

I was wondering if I can throw something out to the forum. I own an original P1853 Enfield and I've always liked the idea of firing it the "proper way" or the "military" way. As British and Commonwealth Enfields were fired paper-patched from their cartridge - I got a custom mould made that casts a straight-sided Pritchet bullet, and I've got my hands on some original pattern cartridge "blue-prints"

I've been loading up a few - the outer "cartridge paper" I use is from the local chip shop :wink: It's thin but strong. I have been dipping the ends of the cartridge into melted beeswax and tallow.

Now, at 300 yards every shot hits the board, but they are scattered to say the least. I realise that if I paper-patch the bullets themselves and not rely on the"tearing off at the muzzle" process my shots would be tighter. But I was wondering, still using the "military" fashion of loading paper-patched cartridges, is there any way of tightening the groups up - or should I be happy with 12-minute arch shooting?

Really hope that makes sense.

Regards
T

 

[TFoley]

Sir - I have no idea where you have got the notion that any of the muzzle-loading military Enfields in British use shot paper-patched bullets.

True, the rounds were made up as cartridges, but the greased/waxed paper simply held the 2.5 drams of powder and the expanding skirt Minie bullet together in a single convenient piece. The paper was discarded after pouring the powder down the bore, followed by the Minie bullet.

If you have any documented proof to the contrary, then please provide it - I've only been shooting BP muzzle-loading guns for around 55 years, so I might have missed something here.

In any event, the Enfield was designed from the outset to shoot the expanding skirt Minie bullet, rather than a smooth-sided Pritchett-style bullet, although both sides in the recent WoNA used such projectiles. In British use, however, this did not happen, AFAIK.

The Commonwealth, BTW, did not exist at the time that muzzle-loaders were the issue weapon - the word you are looking for, unpopular though it might be these days, is Empire.

Anyhow, I'm sure that David Minshall of the MLAGB will be along in a minute or so, to put us ALL right.

tac
Whitworth #888

 

[TFoley]

The musketry books also recommended that “Whenever the grease around the bullet appears to be melted away, or otherwise removed from the cartridge, the sides of the bullet should be wetted in the mouth before putting it into the barrel; the saliva will serve the purpose of grease for the time being."

If the bullet was patched, then you would not be able to wet it.

tac

 

[poordevil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge

 

[poordevil]

http://www.civilwarguns.com/9110b.html

 

[Tower75]

Wow - how did I know that first reply would be a "you're wrong" post. Awesome welcome, thanks.

I have copies of hand-books from that time that confirm Enfield cartridges were loaded with stright-sided bullets, and that they were fired paper-patched. I can also confirm this because original Enfield cartridges that still exist have straight-sided bullets in them. Plus the two links above both state that too. Thank you for those, poordevil.

Give me your email - I'll send you the patterns for the cartridges themselves.

 

[TFoley]

Well, you learn something every day. :surrender:

I can truthfully say 'Well, I never knew that...' That's the benefit of a forum like this.

tac

 

[ohio ramrod]

Don't let one bad natured response turn you off on this forum! Overall most of the members are friendly and helpful! :idunno: :idunno:

 

[ResearchPress]

Look at the references on the Wikipedia page above. Number 1 is a link to an article I wrote about "Enfield Paper Cartridges". There's detailed drawings and information on how to make and load the cartridges. Pick the images to enlarge them. This is from an historical perspective not from a modern shooting view.

David

 

[TFoley]

It wasn't 'bad-natured' - it was disbelief caused by my ignorance.

As I noted, I learnt from it.

tac

 

[Tower75]

I wont. No worries :wink:

I'll also check out that link, thanks, David.

Just out of interest then, does anybody use paper-patched straight-sided bullets, or load paper-patched from the cartidge with the "tear off at muzzle" process in their Enfields?

Regards
T

 

[paulab]

Tower....yup, there are people here who shoot straight sided paper patched bullets. Some in competition, some for fun. cheers Paul

 

[poordevil]

When I shoot my Prichett ball patched, I do not make the Whole-Shebang ctg. Just some heavy cotton bound resume paper and a glue stick and tuck the little extra paper up in the cavity. Then dip in bees wax and mutton tallow, don't want the Sepoy's to get upset!

 

[Tower75]

Hahaha :grin:

No, we do not want the Sepoys upset... again. Nasty business all round that, really.

Interesting - you glue the patch to the bullet? What sort of accuracy do you get from that? If the patch is stuck to the bullet, doesn't that effect the ballistics?

Regards
T

 

[poordevil]

I get good accuracy, but I can not say just now how many inches at what yards. At 50 yards my Musketoon will make a large raggedy hole with as many shots I care to take, standing, with the ball naked and it shoots a little better patched, but not by a great deal. My Prichett ball mold throws a .569 cal bullet. Patched or unpatched, it shoots like a modern gun, in that if I can see it, I expect to hit it. It is a wonderful little gun.

The patch, even in the old days were not meant to fall away like a round ball cloth patch, but remain as a black powder ctg paper patch bullet does.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I beg to differ. Paper patched cartridge bullets do not remain attached to the bullet all the way down range. I do not have a lot of historical proof that this has always been the case but experience has shown me that every bullet I have fired where the jacket remained attached caused that bullet to shoot out of an existing group. Some times well out of the group. I shoot paper patch bullets out of cartridge guns at long range and every attempt is made to have the jacket detach from the bullet as soon as it leaves the muzzle.

I have just started experimenting with paper patched bullets in an old Zoli Zouave. I am using tracing paper for patching and wrap the jacket on dry and load with a lubricated wool wad under the bullet. So far the bullets are reacting as the ones from the cartridge rifles. When fired there is a cloud of smoke and a shower of paper confetti as the jacket disintegrates.

If you have a historical reference showing that manufacturers of paper patch ammunition in the 19th century intended to have the jacket remain on the bullet I would be glad to read and be better informed

 

[paulab]

flash pan is right.....a paper patch that sticks to a bullet is a flyer for sure.

 

[poordevil]

Well then, I can be corrected this time. My only experience is with that one Musketoon, and because I do glue them on and get pretty good accuracy, and see or saw no paper laying about I just believed them to stay attached and took it the final step and believed the ctg guns to do the same. I will defer to those better informed that I. :hatsoff:

 

[Jason Lewis]

if you don't have confetti in front of your muzzle when shooting paper patched rounds, then you are doing something wrong.