Paper shot cups

[Crow#21957]

Will they work in a barrel that's jug choked.

 

[Brokennock]

Will they work in a barrel that's jug choked.

Depending on the way they are made, they might negate the jug choke.
Cups made by wrapping around a dowel and folding one end and twisting the other closed (or twisting both), then opening one end at loading, may not open in the barrel allowing the shot load to expand into the jug.
You can form a paper cup at the muzzle each time you load by folding a strip of paper over the end of a dowel amd inserting it into the muzzle, remove the dowel and fill with shot. This should open in the jug.
What gauge are you working with?
For a 20 gauge a strip of paper 1 and 3/16" wide will just barely overlap around the appropriate size dowel. I think a 3" long strip that wide is what I was using for ounce and quarter loads of shot.

 

[ppg1949]

I use them and think they help but my barrel is not jug choked. I would think it would depend on the depth of your choke. The only way to tell would be try it. I use 3X5 cards but others use less stiff paper. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I haven't shot them in my jug choked 12ga but tried them in my 20 ga trade gun. Perhaps it was just me, I made the cups out of anything and everything, no matter how I made them about 50% slugged and never opened.

If you want a better pattern out of your jug choked barrel try the Skychief load, my jug choked fowler shot like a modified choke until I tried the Skychief load which changed the pattern to more like an extra full choke.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Will they work in a barrel that's jug choked.

SURE.

Just make them as you would a basic cartridge..., not super stiff like an actual shot cup, because you have the jug choking working for you. I'd use newsprint. I have a modern choked Pedersoli 20 gauge, but I hunt with guys using modern shotguns, SO..., to keep up when going for birds, I use a newsprint cartridge with the powder load, tear it, pour it, and then ram down the paper on top of the powder to form a wad. Then I add a similar paper cartridge having only an ounce of #6 lead shot, but gently seat that on top of the paper wad, and don't need an overcard.

The ONLY shotgun that I've been blessed to limit-out when going for pheasant or grouse.

LD

 

[pacanis]

@Loyalist Dave , are you folding or twisting your shot cup paper on both ends? Or something different? Are you gluing the seam? How many layers or rolls of paper?
Inquiring minds want to know

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The following is the BEST tutorial on making cartridges that I have ever seen, AND it was only posted a year ago.
The video below is for assembly of a standard military cartridge for the Bess. This is slightly different than a load used by a Select Marksman

To make a blank round, merely crush the portion of the paper tube where the ball would go (as seen in the video) into the concave portion of the "forming- tool", "former" or "mandrel". NOTE how NO GLUE is needed. When not using a ball, no string is needed either.

What I do is make a former that just fits inside the bore of my Bess, or carbine, or trade gun. THEN I sand it down, and apply cartridge paper to the former as I would when making a cartridge, and check the fit at the bore. It's too large once the paper is wrapped, so I sand down the former a little more, wrap the paper and again check the fit. I continue the process until the former, with the paper, just fits inside the bore, snugly but not so snug as to difficult. NOW the former is fitted to that particular gun.

IF I am making accuracy loads, that former will work with a ball. I mark the former with felt tip pen for the gun and type of ammo. When loading for accuracy, I do not use the single piece of string method as shown in the below video. The portion of the string passing around the outside of the cartridge where the ball rests is a variable that effects accuracy. I merely tie off both above and below the ball with two different pieces of string, and trim up close to the knot. Watch the video and this will make sense.

IF I am making military rounds, I need to use the size ball for speed loading which is smaller than that for accuracy, and check the diameter of the former, and reduce it to the size of the speed load round ball. This will make for a loose, live round cartridge, but in a volley fire event, the bore is going to crud-up as we shoot, and that round needs to fit when I'm firing my 18th shot. It's about speed, not accuracy, and this is really the most "authentic" load for the Bess, and explains where the inaccuracy ideas came from. I mark this former with felt tip pen for the gun and "SPEED" so I know this isn't for making target competition or hunting loads. I then have two formers for each smoothbore.

IF I am making a shot cartridge..., I use the accuracy former for the powder cartridge. It need to be very close to being snug, and I'm not going to shoot that many times. THEN I use the SPEED former for the shot cartridge. The shot, will cause the paper to bulge. IF you use the already close fitting accuracy sized cartridge, you will have a tough time loading the shot. When you have loaded the powder within the accuracy sized cartridge, you then insert the empty tube, and ram it down on top of the powder, compressing it to form a wad. Then you take the separate shot cartridge, and gently seat that on top of the powder and freshly formed wad. (You can always load the powder, ram down a lubed 1/2" fiber wad, while discarding the powder cartridge empty tube, instead).

SMOOTHBORE LIVE ROUND

NOTE: In 1776 Cuthbertson gives information that the combat load was 155 grains of powder in the Musket cartridge. IF 10 grains was used in the pan, then the cartridge was using 140-145 grains as the main charge. Today's powder is 2X as strong as 1776 powder, SO..., when we make a Bess cartridge, 70-80 grains is where that load should be.

LD

 

[CTShooter]

I had about the same results as Eric, lots of slugs, no tape, glue or twisting. Tried a few different types of paper.
The Beretta is not choked, the SkyChief load groups like a modern choked gun.

 

[Trigger]

If the object was to get a tighter pattern as possible from an open choke.

The best idea so far i can think of. had been to try cutting a flight control wadd from a federal turkey shell. I don't know how it would work though just an idea.

I don't think I could origami anything that would work.

 

[pacanis]

IF I am making a shot cartridge..., I use the accuracy former for the powder cartridge. It need to be very close to being snug, and I'm not going to shoot that many times. THEN I use the SPEED former for the shot cartridge. The shot, will cause the paper to bulge. IF you use the already close fitting accuracy sized cartridge, you will have a tough time loading the shot. When you have loaded the powder within the accuracy sized cartridge, you then insert the empty tube, and ram it down on top of the powder, compressing it to form a wad. Then you take the separate shot cartridge, and gently seat that on top of the powder and freshly formed wad. (You can always load the powder, ram down a lubed 1/2" fiber wad, while discarding the powder cartridge empty tube, instead).

So are you still using the full size BB paper cartridge template when just making a separate shot cup?
I'm not following how that works...
Unless you are folding the paper in all the way around where the ball would normally go.
And then tearing off the tail, leaving that end of the shot cup open.

ETA: that wouldn't work. The shot would fall out.

 

[Brokennock]

I get no, as in Zero, slugging with the shot cup/cartridges shown in my "how to" post. I had gotten slugging with previous methods and materials.

But, if one is looking for a tight pattern,,,, what could be tighter than that slugged shot cup? If it hits where you aim, that turkey, or most anything else, is done.

 

[Ohio Rusty]

In my 12 gauge SxS I have used dime coin wrappers with varying success. Maybe slitting them may help some. I grease them, then they get pushed down onto the wad/powder.
Ohio Rusty ><>

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So are you still using the full size BB paper cartridge template when just making a separate shot cup?
I'm not following how that works...
Unless you are folding the paper in all the way around where the ball would normally go.
And then tearing off the tail, leaving that end of the shot cup open.

ETA: that wouldn't work. The shot would fall out.

No, since I am using just newsprint, to simply hold the shot in a pre-measured form, I just make a plain cartridge as if it was going to hold powder, but instead it holds the shot, and insert it whole into the muzzle. The paper will rupture as it and the shot exit the barrel when the gun is fired.

IF I want an actual shot-cup, I use thicker, stiffer paper. After the powder is poured, and the powder cartridge tube (now empty) is inserted and crushed down to form a wad, I would then load the actual paper "shot cup" cartridge. The tail of the cartridge is the last bit, and I can do a couple different things. I can insert the shot cup cartridge into the muzzle..., pushing the shot just past the edge of the muzzle, and tear open the cartridge, exposing the shot. THEN I can take the left over paper, ball that up, and use that as the over-shot card, OR I could drop the paper, and use a ball of tow if I preferred. The other way is simply to insert the shot cartridge, pushing it about and inch below the muzzle, then simply cram the still attached tail into the muzzle and ram it down leaving the tail in place, as an over shot wad.

LD

 

[pacanis]

No, since I am using just newsprint, to simply hold the shot in a pre-measured form, I just make a plain cartridge as if it was going to hold powder, but instead it holds the shot, and insert it whole into the muzzle. The paper will rupture as it and the shot exit the barrel when the gun is fired.

IF I want an actual shot-cup, I use thicker, stiffer paper. After the powder is poured, and the powder cartridge tube (now empty) is inserted and crushed down to form a wad, I would then load the actual paper "shot cup" cartridge. The tail of the cartridge is the last bit, and I can do a couple different things. I can insert the shot cup cartridge into the muzzle..., pushing the shot just past the edge of the muzzle, and tear open the cartridge, exposing the shot. THEN I can take the left over paper, ball that up, and use that as the over-shot card, OR I could drop the paper, and use a ball of tow if I preferred. The other way is simply to insert the shot cartridge, pushing it about and inch below the muzzle, then simply cram the still attached tail into the muzzle and ram it down leaving the tail in place, as an over shot wad.

LD

Thanks.
That's more in line with what I was asking.

I already make BB cartridges using that video except using two pieces of string instead of one.

I think the problem I had with shot cups is I was using a rectangular piece of paper and gluing the seam. I'll try using the BB template next time.

 

[oldramrod]

I have good results using paper shot cartridges made from three thickness of newsprint tied shut with kite string.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Will they work in a barrel that's jug choked.

You don't need them in a jug choke

 

[pacanis]

I have good results using paper shot cartridges made from three thickness of newsprint tied shut with kite string.

Do you tie both ends?

 

[oldramrod]

I tie one end shut, fill with shot , twist and fold over and tie shut with the string used for the first tie. I load powder two light leather wads then shot cartridge tied end out! The tied end acts as as over shot card.

 

[Rob M.]

With grass , green , or hornets nest on top ... Bottom , twisted shut . Never slugged , it can't . Very simple ...