Parker-Hale Musketoon Lock Question

[Cpt Flint]

Thank You Sir! Any additional information is gratefully solicited.

 

[Barry Strickland]

Windini
A properly built lock will not have a washer in it. Apparently it was installed to try to correct some type of error in manufacturing.

 

[Artificer]

The screws were not at all tight on disassembly. I misinterpreted this as perhaps being part of the problem. I've had input from elsewhere that the tumbler geometry "didn't look right," but I don't have any other P-H 1858 pattern Enfield tumbler image to go on, so I can't make that determination yet.

Below is an image of an original tumbler, though in the pic, it is upside down.

The somewhat rounded profile of the Half **** Notch, which is the top notch shown in the pic above, was done deliberately to allow clearance for the sear tip/nose, as the tumbler rotates past the sear in operation.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

OK, to properly adjust the Bridle and Sear Screws, it is best to disassemble the lock down to where there is just the Bridle and Tumbler (with the Hammer in place). Tighten the Bridle Screw and then keep backing it off 1/8 of a turn at a time until the Tumbler moves freely. Then add the Sear and Sear Screw. Again, tighten the Sear Screw down and then keep backing it off 1/8 of a turn at a time until the Sear moves freely. This is how it is done in normal assembly, because the screws were/are not specifically adjusted so they can be tightened down snug. Then continue with the rest of the assembly of the lock.

I would like to see a good pic of the Sear Tip/Face of the Sear to see if there is damage there in your lock, but you have to disassemble the lock to take a good pic.

windini,

Do you know how to correctly disassemble the lock and what tools are necessary to do it?

Gus

 

[DuncNZ]

I suspect that a previous owner has been fiddling with the lock and removed the half **** notch rather than wear
There is no washer in the lock , in fact I cant remember ever seeing any lock with a washer in it , The washer may be a spacer that has been put in to move the lock away from the wood . I will try and copy my manual tomorrow and put it on line . It is 11.20 pm 7th Dec here and I'm going clay shooting tomorrow so I need some sleep . I have seen this before and I am reasonably it can all be sorted , just don't rush .

 

[windini]

Do you know how to correctly disassemble the lock and what tools are necessary to do it?

Well... I had it completely disassembled to clean up the peining on the half **** notch, so yes. Do I have the right-handed Parker patented Haleometric Twizzling decombobulator? Er, no.

I have a good assortment of tools and this isn't my first lock disassembly; however, I do not claim 'smith status by any stretch. I don't have a dedicated spring compressor, so I had to substitute a small C-clamp. However, the mainspring was already scarred from a previous tinkerer's efforts, so I didn't sweat it too much.

The hardest part was getting the hammer off the tumbler after the retaining screw was removed. The square post on the tumbler and the square mortise in the hammer are tapered, sorta, and not true to each other. But I managed to get it done without any deformation of parts.

Is there such a thing as a bench block for these locks? Or are most made to suit? The biggest pain for me is often just getting things to set right & have adequate support for a relatively simple step - set up time can exceed operation time by a factor of [big number here].

EDIT: I forgot to say: I don't have a pic of the sear. But I did look at all the parts up close while disassembled and there was no noticeable damage to the sear. The damage to the tumbler at the half **** notch was clear, and I suspect I would have noticed other wear/damage in the other part.

I'll see if I have or can get a pic of the sear/tumbler interaction. It will be a side-view rather than end-on (unless I get to the poiint where I have to disassemble again).

 

[Artificer]

Well... I had it completely disassembled to clean up the peining on the half **** notch, so yes. Do I have the right-handed Parker patented Haleometric Twizzling decombobulator? Er, no.

I have a good assortment of tools and this isn't my first lock disassembly; however, I do not claim 'smith status by any stretch. I don't have a dedicated spring compressor, so I had to substitute a small C-clamp. However, the mainspring was already scarred from a previous tinkerer's efforts, so I didn't sweat it too much.

The hardest part was getting the hammer off the tumbler after the retaining screw was removed. The square post on the tumbler and the square mortise in the hammer are tapered, sorta, and not true to each other. But I managed to get it done without any deformation of parts.

Is there such a thing as a bench block for these locks? Or are most made to suit? The biggest pain for me is often just getting things to set right & have adequate support for a relatively simple step - set up time can exceed operation time by a factor of [big number here].

EDIT: I forgot to say: I don't have a pic of the sear. But I did look at all the parts up close while disassembled and there was no noticeable damage to the sear. The damage to the tumbler at the half **** notch was clear, and I suspect I would have noticed other wear/damage in the other part.

I'll see if I have or can get a pic of the sear/tumbler interaction. It will be a side-view rather than end-on (unless I get to the poiint where I have to disassemble again).

No, there are not really bench blocks made for these, but they really aren't necessary as most folks make their own out of scrap pieces of 2 x 4. One Block drilled with a hole a bit larger than the inside outer tumbler post is all you need to set the tumbler on it, then the lock plate and hammer over it to reassemble. A different piece of 2 x 4 scrap block can be sawn chiseled out large enough for the tumbler to fall in when driven off the hammer for disassembly.

Gus

 

[DuncNZ]

Be careful using vice grips or any tool with teeth as a spring clamp , marks on a spring can be the start of a crack , A good clamp can be made by using a small shifting spanner , just pull the hammer back as far as you can then place the jaws over the spring and do up snug , then carefully let the hammer down and the spring should come off with the spanner attached , put that aside carefully so as not to knock the spanner off .
If you want to take the hammer off the tumbler , disassemble the lock place the lock plate on two pieces of wood ,hammer up , Undo the hammer screw a small amount , half a turn would probably do , then with the lock plate fully supported gibe the screw head a sharp tap with a wooden mallet or a leather hammer , this should break the taper , unscrew the screw and push out the tumbler . If half a turn isnt enough turn the screw out a little more and have another go , but dont turn the screw too far or hit it too hard . carefully and slowly does it .

 

[windini]

Undo the hammer screw a small amount , half a turn would probably do , then with the lock plate fully supported gibe the screw head a sharp tap with a wooden mallet or a leather hammer , this should break the taper , unscrew the screw and push out the tumbler .

This was essentially what I did, which led me to the bench block question a few posts ago. However, it required A LOT more force than I expected! Heat, Kroil, time, a brass punch, and creative vocabulary were all employed along the way...

I used some Swiss mini files & emory paper to smooth out the mating surfaces (90% on he hammer mortise, very little on the tumbler post). On reassembly, it slid together easier & closer to fully seated. But the last 1/16" ~ 3/32" still wedged tightly with the snugging of the screw.

I expect it to be a bear again upon another disassembly, but hope for Ursa Minor as opposed to his big brother.

 

[Cpt Flint]

It makes a whole lot more sense to order a spring clamp and hammer puller from Jim Chambers or L and R. Someone has stated that this lock didn’t need a fly. If it had a properly working fly we wouldn’t have this problem.

 

[Artificer]

It makes a whole lot more sense to order a spring clamp and hammer puller from Jim Chambers or L and R. Someone has stated that this lock didn’t need a fly. If it had a properly working fly we wouldn’t have this problem.

The overwhelming majority of military locks never had a fly in the tumbler because they didn't use set triggers. Since these Arms were mostly seen as being used with Volley Firing, the quick jerk of the trigger to do that ensured this problem would not come up. Also, the soldiers were trained to "follow through" on slow fire, which meant they kept pressing the trigger until the "bullet went through the target." This also ensured such damage would never occur.

Gus

Edited to add: Since these arms didn't need a fly in the tumbler, there was no reason to pay the higher costs of having the tumblers cut for a fly and installed. Also, a fly in the tumbler on these arms would have made them less reliable as a combat arm.

 

[Rudyard]

Be careful using vice grips or any tool with teeth as a spring clamp , marks on a spring can be the start of a crack , A good clamp can be made by using a small shifting spanner , just pull the hammer back as far as you can then place the jaws over the spring and do up snug , then carefully let the hammer down and the spring should come off with the spanner attached , put that aside carefully so as not to knock the spanner off .
If you want to take the hammer off the tumbler , disassemble the lock place the lock plate on two pieces of wood ,hammer up , Undo the hammer screw a small amount , half a turn would probably do , then with the lock plate fully supported gibe the screw head a sharp tap with a wooden mallet or a leather hammer , this should break the taper , unscrew the screw and push out the tumbler . If half a turn isn't enough turn the screw out a little more and have another go , but dont turn the screw too far or hit it too hard . carefully and slowly does it .

The Americans don,t have' Shifting spanners' preffering' Cresent Wrenches' instead . My wife's from New Jersey. Summerset exit. Which is a New Jersey joke . We married at Fort Ti & I cut the cake with a 12'' mid 18c dirk Just threw that in . Actual spot was atop Mt Defience nice view of the Fort & Lake .
.Regards Rudyard

 

[Cpt Flint]

The overwhelming majority of military locks never had a fly in the tumbler because they didn't use set triggers. Since these Arms were mostly seen as being used with Volley Firing, the quick jerk of the trigger to do that ensured this problem would not come up. Also, the soldiers were trained to "follow through" on slow fire, which meant they kept pressing the trigger until the "bullet went through the target." This also ensured such damage would never occur.

Gus

Edited to add: Since these arms didn't need a fly in the tumbler, there was no reason to pay the higher costs of having the tumblers cut for a fly and installed. Also, a fly in the tumbler on these arms would have made them less reliable as a combat arm.

 

[Cpt Flint]

I agree that most military locks didn’t need a fly in the tumbler because of the need for simplicity. I know what “soldier proof” is. I was struck by the fact that Whitworth locks had a fly. I merely stated that the problem lock in question could have used a properly working one to keep it from catching on half ****. All this fuss might not matter anywhere else, but ain’t it fun!

 

[Whitworth]

I agree that most military locks didn’t need a fly in the tumbler because of the need for simplicity. I know what “soldier proof” is. I was struck by the fact that Whitworth locks had a fly. I merely stated that the problem lock in question could have used a properly working one to keep it from catching on half ****. All this fuss might not matter anywhere else, but ain’t it fun!

The internals of those Whitworth locks are just beautiful to look at and drool over. I guess it's like lock ****o for gun folks.

 

[Artificer]

I agree that most military locks didn’t need a fly in the tumbler because of the need for simplicity. I know what “soldier proof” is. I was struck by the fact that Whitworth locks had a fly. I merely stated that the problem lock in question could have used a properly working one to keep it from catching on half ****. All this fuss might not matter anywhere else, but ain’t it fun!

Actually, the damage to the OP's lock could have come from not enough clearance in the stock mortise OR improper operator trigger pull technique. The former would have been a manufacturing mistake and the latter would have been operator error. Neither of these things had anything to do with the lock design or manufacture.

Whitworth Rifles were indeed something far removed in quality from standard Infantry Arms and their cost was the largest measure of why so few (comparatively speaking) were made. When something costs that much more, of course such things as a fly in the tumbler could be included.

Gus

 

[windini]

The Americans don,t have' Shifting spanners' preffering' Cresent Wrenches' instead

"The United States and The United Kingdom; two great Nations separated by a common language."

I admit it took me a moment to translate "spanner." As indicated in the pics below, I apparently missed the 'shifting' bit! (pics 2 &3)

@Artificer , pertaining to your post(s) above, I'm adding some photos of a) the sear; b) the tumbler; c) the engagement of the sear & tumbler. Discerning viewers can perceive the offending alien washer in the upper right corner of one of the photos (pic 3). In order to return to 'zero' and get the sear and lock plate more paraller, another (partial) disassembly was required.

The sear. It does not appear to be excessively worn, let alone damaged. Harder steel than the tumbler? I didn't polish or stone the sear at all.

The tumbler; 2 views. This is after I filed off the peining & deepened the half-**** notch for more positive engagement after removing some material.

The sear/tumbler engagement, at half **** & at full ****.

Half

Full

The sear engagement looks very good (to this novice); the sear nose fits solidly in the notches and engages across the full width of the mating surfaces. The re-reassembled lock seems to function correctly out of the stock. The next step is to reinstall it in the stock, check for function, then pursue inlet modification if the sear leg is still impeded after washer removal, realignement w/lock plate & screw tightness adjustment.

I cannot adequately thank you all for your constructive - and sometimes amusing - input!

Your avid student,
Windini.

 

[Artificer]

"The United States and The United Kingdom; two great Nations separated by a common language."

I admit it took me a moment to translate "spanner." As indicated in the pics below, I apparently missed the 'shifting' bit! (pics 2 &3)

@Artificer , pertaining to your post(s) above, I'm adding some photos of a) the sear; b) the tumbler; c) the engagement of the sear & tumbler. Discerning viewers can perceive the offending alien washer in the upper right corner of one of the photos (pic 3). In order to return to 'zero' and get the sear and lock plate more paraller, another (partial) disassembly was required.

The sear. It does not appear to be excessively worn, let alone damaged. Harder steel than the tumbler? I didn't polish or stone the sear at all.
View attachment 108568

The tumbler; 2 views. This is after I filed off the peining & deepened the half-**** notch for more positive engagement after removing some material.
View attachment 108569

View attachment 108570

The sear/tumbler engagement, at half **** & at full ****.

Half
View attachment 108571

Full
View attachment 108572

The sear engagement looks very good (to this novice); the sear nose fits solidly in the notches and engages across the full width of the mating surfaces. The re-reassembled lock seems to function correctly out of the stock. The next step is to reinstall it in the stock, check for function, then pursue inlet modification if the sear leg is still impeded after washer removal, realignement w/lock plate & screw tightness adjustment.

I cannot adequately thank you all for your constructive - and sometimes amusing - input!

Your avid student,
Windini.

Good job!

Yes, the Sear does look good.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

"The United States and The United Kingdom; two great Nations separated by a common language."

I admit it took me a moment to translate "spanner." As indicated in the pics below, I apparently missed the 'shifting' bit! (pics 2 &3)

@Artificer , pertaining to your post(s) above, I'm adding some photos of a) the sear; b) the tumbler; c) the engagement of the sear & tumbler. Discerning viewers can perceive the offending alien washer in the upper right corner of one of the photos (pic 3). In order to return to 'zero' and get the sear and lock plate more paraller, another (partial) disassembly was required.

The sear. It does not appear to be excessively worn, let alone damaged. Harder steel than the tumbler? I didn't polish or stone the sear at all.
View attachment 108568

The tumbler; 2 views. This is after I filed off the peining & deepened the half-**** notch for more positive engagement after removing some material.
View attachment 108569

View attachment 108570

The sear/tumbler engagement, at half **** & at full ****.

Half
View attachment 108571

Full
View attachment 108572

The sear engagement looks very good (to this novice); the sear nose fits solidly in the notches and engages across the full width of the mating surfaces. The re-reassembled lock seems to function correctly out of the stock. The next step is to reinstall it in the stock, check for function, then pursue inlet modification if the sear leg is still impeded after washer removal, realignement w/lock plate & screw tightness adjustment.

I cannot adequately thank you all for your constructive - and sometimes amusing - input!

Your avid student,
Windini.

OK, just have to ask the following question, due to your pic I copied below:

I can't see it, so I have to ask if the forward portion of the lower Sear Spring Leaf is jamming up against the rounded bolster of the Sear? It should rest and operate a little behind the rounded corner of the bolster on top of the straight part of the top of the Sear. If it is jamming into the corner, it will cause an unnecessarily heavy trigger pull, because it isn't being bent upwards freely and properly.

Gus

 

[windini]

OK, just have to ask the following question, due to your pic I copied below:

View attachment 108595

I can't see it, so I have to ask if the forward portion of the lower Sear Spring Leaf is jamming up against the rounded bolster of the Sear? It should rest and operate a little behind the rounded corner of the bolster on top of the straight part of the top of the Sear. If it is jamming into the corner, it will cause an unnecessarily heavy trigger pull, because it isn't being bent upwards freely and properly.

Gus

I don't know; I will check it out!