patch box on a fowler"

[George]

Have any of the gun experts on the board ever seen a patch box on an original 18th-century fowling piece, smoothbore?

Spence

 

[Dane]

Yes,

Grinslade's book on American Fowlers,shows several. Can't say they were the norm, but definitely existed.

 

[wattlebuster]

Yes sir I have that book an there are several in it. :thumbsup:

 

[George]

Does he speculate why that is so? What they were used for?

Spence

 

[KHickam]

Yes, I have seen some pics and I remember one in a museum in ND?

I suspect the patchboxes were used then for the same thing we use them for now.

 

[tg]

Probably not for patches as we have nothing to suggest they were used in fowlers.

 

[George]

Yes, that's what I was thinking. If fowling pieces were made with patch boxes, is that evidence that PRB were used in them?

Spence

 

[KHickam]

Ummm - wouldn't the very presence of a patchbox suggest that they did use patches?

 

[tg]

Not at all on a fowler they may have been used for another purpose, tools/tow,wadding,we do not know so we should not assume, we do not even know they were called patchboxes on fowlers as they were on rifles.

 

[KHickam]

Hmmmmm

 

[Marc Adamchek]

My definitely uneducated guess is wadding.That just makes sense to me, but as I said, pure guesswork.

Maybe the really sad, dumb guys kept shot in there and everytime they opened it all the shot fell out.

 

[George]

Maybe the really sad, dumb guys kept shot in there and everytime they opened it all the shot fell out.

So that's where all my shot is going! :redface:

Spence

 

[rich pierce]

They were not called patchboxes until the 1800's. Just "brass box" or "wooden sliding box" etc. It's really the caplock era when they were commonly called patchboxes.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

...which begs the question, were there such boxes on percussion smoothbores, and if so, what was kept in them? Back to square one by a different, more modern highway.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

There are so few examples of 18th century fowling pieces proper with a box on them that there is really not much to comment on. Just as you can in this modern day find a car with the bouncing hydraulics or "grills" of gold to cover ones teeth, they are the exception to the rule and both make you say ... :shake:

While you can find some weird features on later guns of smooth bore like crescent butt plates, it does not indicate any purpose other than either poor design or copying a design they were familiar with in making rifles. I think the box on the 18c. fowling gun anomaly is similar although it could be useful to hold just about anything the shooter wanted to put in it as long as it fit. :thumbsup:
I just dont think there are enough examples out of all surviving examples to even classify them as a style, just an exception.

 

[KJGROHS]

I'd vote for tools and wadding, got another idea what about hideing a gunmakers mistake, or maybe some one wanted the same feature on his shot gun as on his rifle, then like now we all want what we think is normal, or practicle

 

[Stumpkiller]

Jag & tow worm, flints, etc. They're handy recepticles.

 

[KHickam]

Probably not for patches as we have nothing to suggest they were used in fowlers.

This is a pretty big assumption isn't it?

We have smooth rifles - with sliding wooden boxes What were they used for? Wads and tools?

Did rifles use wads?

Why would you use a wad in a rifle mounted smoothbore?

Why are there front and rear sights on trade guns and fowlers? You certainly don't need them for fowling - if anything they might be a detriment to fowling.

Sure I have put tools and extra flints and other stuff in my sliding wood boxes but I have also put greased patches and raw patching material in there too.

I am sure that some will come in and show period references to 'wads or wadding' being used. Okay - I get that too. But, like today - personal preference and what works for each individual dictates what is used and how it is used.

IE - All of us on this board that post are reasonably literate - do you write descriptions on how you do common everyday tasks.

Do you write down whether you go commando, wear boxers or tighty whiteys?

 

[Okwaho]

There are so few examples of 18th century fowling pieces proper with a box on them that there is really not much to comment on. Just as you can in this modern day find a car with the bouncing hydraulics or "grills" of gold to cover ones teeth, they are the exception to the rule and both make you say ... :shake:

While you can find some weird features on later guns of smooth bore like crescent butt plates, it does not indicate any purpose other than either poor design or copying a design they were familiar with in making rifles. I think the box on the 18c. fowling gun anomaly is similar although it could be useful to hold just about anything the shooter wanted to put in it as long as it fit. :thumbsup:
I just dont think there are enough examples out of all surviving examples to even classify them as a style, just an exception.

I agree here as well as with Rich and when you consider the extreme rarity of American made fowling pieces {excluding the Hudsons Valley guns}made prior to the Revolutionary War {see Henry J Kaufman, THE PENNSYLVANIA-KENTUCKY RIFLE, Ch.4 PP.102-103] it is very difficult to assign the presence of boxes as having been placed on 18th century fowling pieces.Additionally it is also possible that such boxes may have been added. There is the John Newcomer the elder rifle {RCA 73,PP.308-311} made probably in Lancaster County,Pa Ca. 1779 { see tax records}. This fine early rifle has been enhanced with a later probable Virginia styled box during its period of active use.
Incidentally the rifle shown by Shumway {RCA 119}as being of unknown manufacture and later attributed to "Bullard" is now generally considered as having been made by John Newcomer the younger Ca 1780-1783.
In short the presence of a box on an 18th-early 19th century fowling is proof ONLY of its presence not its date of installation or intended purpose.
As always I welcome responsible opposing comment.

Tom Patton :bow: :v

 

[KJGROHS]

Ha ha ha , here's something else the so called smooth rifles!!!
So e had boxes , sliding boxes, that originally were rifled, either the rifleing was so worn or that it was bored out. One never knows.