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Patent vs Non-Patent Breech

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joliver

36 Cal.
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I know that my Lyman GPR (.54 cal, caplock, slow-twist bbl) has a patent breech, and I've seen a drawing of what a patent breech looks like, but what's the purpose of it--to get more powder closer to the fire coming from the cap? And is it really any better than a non-patent breech?

joliver
 
Since the patent breech is a combination breechplug and flash channel, and it requires 1 less set of threads, it could be considered to be a stronger and a more efficient way to manufacture a BP gun.
But because every patent breech is a little different it's hard to say if the powder is always potentially closer to the cap or not.
It usually is since the flame usually isn't required to take a right angle into the powder chamber for ignition.
The patent breech flash channel might be easier to fill with powder using gravity rather than needing to tilt or slap the rifle as is common with a drum gun.
Whether it's actually "better" than a drum or not varies because a poorly made patent breech might be worse than a well made drum.
It depends on how well it performs in reality, and whether or not the flash channel can easily accomodate using the larger ffg powder granulations or not.
Also whether or not the patent breech has a clean out screw may make a difference as to how easy it is to keep the flash channel clean while in the field.
 
We did some chonograph work on this one time. A cone-shaped patent breech shot around 10% faster than a flat bottom breech in the same barrel. I'm still not sure if this means anything as you can just dump more powder in the flat bottom gun & get the same velosity. Ultimately (at least for me) it's all about accuracy. In my chunk guns I prefer a flat bottom as I feel I can clean it easier between shots.

Paul
 
joliver said:
"...what's the purpose of it..."
Faster ignition
"...is it really any better than a non-patent breech..."
I can only assume so based on all the posts over the years...mine give fast ignition that lacks for nothing and they have a completely clean operation...the design prevents fouling from getting down into it and blocking the fire channel...and at least with flintlocks there's no need for a vent pick...all my MLs have patent breeches and I can't imagine the day that I'd ever buy a ML that didn't have one.
 
Thanks, folks--that pretty well answers my questions--including the one I didn't ask, but should have: wouldn't a flat bottom be easier to clean?

joliver
 
Articap said it well, "a poorly designed patent breech may be worse than a well designed drum and nipple". I would add that the most common patent breeches, such as T/C and its Italian cousins are poorly designed. They move the powder charge farther from the ignition source and provide a very small passage between nipple and powder chamber. That flash channel is only about 1/8" diameter. Powder will not, cannot flow into that tiny passage, so the fire from the cap must turn 90 degrees at the bottom of the nipple and jump through that tiny flash channel to reach the powder. Add a bit of fouling coating the inside of that 1/8" hole and you have virtually no passage. That is why you'll often hear those rifles giving slight hang fires, just enough hang that you can hear the pop of the cap distinctly from the boom of the powder charge and why those rifles often have trouble with substitute powders such as Pyrodex. If the flash channel could be enlarged to 5/32 or 3/16" it would be great but in those common designs by T/C or Investarms it cannot be enlarged. A nipple drum may also have a tiny passage, but one having 5/16x24 threads or larger can have a passage large enough for 2f powder or Pyrodex to flow right in under the nipple for fast and certain ignition, just like an underhammer. But the drum must be properly designed and fitted up.
For those interested in blowing up rifles a patent breech is stronger than a drum & nipple but the properly fitted drum is more than strong enough for any reasonable charge in a round ball rifle. Long range rifles firing heavy powder charges under long, heavy bullets produce very high pressures and are safer with a patent breech, plus, that is the way those late period rifles were traditionally built.
 
If I have a choice I'll always go with the flat bottom of the drum and nipple. The designer of the patent breech must have been one heck of a salesman.
 
I think one of the main advantages in the patent breech is to allow dissassembly ease for cleaning. That is, at least in the case of the TC breach. The origionals the purpose was probably for strength.
 
thebees said:
I think one of the main advantages in the patent breech is to allow dissassembly ease for cleaning. That is, at least in the case of the TC breach. The origionals the purpose was probably for strength.
No, that's not the case with the TCs...you're confusing a "hooked breech" with a "patent breech".

A patent breech in an internal design configuration of the breech plug interior that affects the way the powder sits and is presented to the fire channel.

A hooked breech simply refers to the external mechanical hook on the back end of the breech plug that makes it easy to unhook the barrel from the tang, and lift the barrel out of the stock for ease of cleaning.

There is no flat face in TC patent breeches to worry about cleaning...however, there are breech face scrapers made for use with the flat faces at the back end of straight breeches to try and deal with the crud accumulation there.
 
Im still fuzzy on this . Wasnt there a post a while back with some drawings of the difference you guys are talking about? I cant seem to find it.
 
Search the forum, this "why the patent breech" issue has been discussed before.

On the last go around, I found some older authority (somewhere on Google books) that said the patent design evolved with the intention to slow the ignition flame down to allow the flame to generate more heat. Apparently the first ignition caps were somewhat inconsistent and thought (incorrectly or not, I have no idea) to be producing fast flames that would, according to this source, actually burn right through the powder charge without igniting it very well.

Interesting indeed, if true.
 
doulos said:
Im still fuzzy on this . Wasnt there a post a while back with some drawings of the difference you guys are talking about? I cant seem to find it.
nocks-breech.jpg
 
Old40Rod said:
"...Apparently the first ignition caps were somewhat inconsistent and thought (incorrectly or not, I have no idea) to be producing fast flames that would, according to this source, actually burn right through the powder charge without igniting it very well.
Interesting indeed, if true.
The Patent Breech was invented by a Mr. Nock in 1787, long before percussion caps came into use use in the early to mid 1800s.
[url] http://books.google.com/books...QTEttY1e&sig=Oz5FCSM_eq1UAP7wd0pmGehdsKY[/url]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Patent Breech was invented by a Mr. Nock in 1787, long before percussion caps came into use use in the early to mid 1800s.

Yup.... and it was Greener's book I was referencing that describes, in very general fashion, how and why we have patent percussion breeches as we know them. Is he correct? I dunno.
 
Nock's Patent Breech as was mentioned was invented long before the first successful percussion cap was made.
Nock's intention was to have the powder in his anti-chamber create a hot jet of flame that would ignite the main powder charge faster.

Tests showed that it also seemed to reduce fouling because of the more complete burning of the main charge.

Thompson Center and Lyman's guns do not have a Patent Breech. They have the Chambered breech shown above. Actually this design was made shortly after the Patent Breech in an effort to achieve the same fast burning without having to pay Mr. Nock his royalties.
 
In studying the spare TC breech plugs that I have, they are really not like either of those pictured...sort of a hybrid of both...they have the large vertical powder chamber of Nock's patent breech where the chambered breech is a small diameter, but the antechamber in the TC does not seem to go across past the bottom of the powder chamber, like it does in Nocks patent breech.
 
Walks with fire said:
Roundball,

Do you have any idea what type of breech plug design the Green Mountain IBS barrels have? Is it flat bottomed?
Same as TCs...a slightly modified Nocks patent breech design
 
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