PC Iron

[In Over My Head]

I think I'm coming down with something from reading about longrifles, the Golden Age and so on! Anyway, I just read Foxfire 5 and learned a lot more about Iron than I ever thought I'd need to know, and now I find I want to know more.

I read that the early, primitive irons were true wrought irons which have distinct properties that set them apart from steel and from most iron we might encounter now days. I know my question is sort of short-cutting because I probably need to read a lot more literature to get a grip on the sources of materials in specific locations and time frames, but here goes:

Generally, if I were making something that should be made of "Iron", such as a staple in the butt-plug of a horn for example or perhaps various bits of furniture on an iron-mounted rifle, what sort of presently available material would I be looking to use? Are such wrought irons availabe commercially, or are there common items of scrap I might search for, or what?

I'm sure my question is an example that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and that volumes could be written on the topic, but perhaps there is some guidance that might at least set me down the right path?

TIA

 

[chipper]

Wrought iron can be found in hardware stores and purchased a metal stock yards. It's said to have low carbon. It's quite cheap and in every concievable size and shape.
The term steel is usually associated with metal that has a higher carbon content. W1 is about the simplest high carbon steel there is with carbon contents up to 1%. An example of W1 steel is a file. There are of course hundreds of different types of steel. A little bit of this or that metal causes the steel to act this way and that. Everyone has there favorite.
If your simply wanting metal to make things like staples, most anything will work. I prefer to find scrap stuff. Cars are simply full of every concievable size and shape of metal and it's usually falling off for some reason.
I hope that was helpful, I'm sure there will be plenty of folks to chime in with lots of information.
Regards
Loyd Shindelbower
Loveland Colorado

 

[Claude Mathis]

Isn't the metal sold as "wrought iron" today, really "mild steel"? I was under the impression that wasn't any real wrought iron readily available.

 

[T.C.Albert]

I think thats correct...true grained "wrought iron" is a rare and expensive thing today.Sometimes a guy can scrounge up a little off of old buggies,buck boards or other antique farm impliments where it was often used as wear rails to protect the wood...but old farm stuff like that is getting about as rare as real wrought iron...and if a guy is lucky enough to scrounge up a few pounds of it, its usually jealously saved.

I also think I had heard that a foundry or two overseas (Sweden?) was remaking traditional wrought, but it was pretty pricey.

Modern mild steels should easily do the job for "most" of your gun making needs...but for springs you will need true "spring steel", and for frizzens you realy do need a high carbon steel or you will have to face them...and if you want to temper trigger levers etc..., they also need to be made from temperable high carbon steel, which common mild steel is not.
T.C.Albert

 

Isn't the metal sold as "wrought iron" today, really "mild steel"?

Absolutely correct - real wrought iron hasn't been made for about 100 years or so. Real wrought iron can have a carbon content of .2 - .3% carbon and usually has a high silicate content which helps make it rust resistant.
There are varying grades of wrought: single wrought was generally used for coarse parts such as wagon wheel rims. The higher/more refined grain wrought (double and triple wrought) were used for building bridges and for the fine decorative iron work such as New Orleans'French Quarter is famous for.
Real wrought is a dream to work with even when compared to modern mild steels such as 1018 and A36 (the stuff found at most hardware stores). It moves like butter under the hammer, but must be worked at a higher heat than steel - generally close to white hot - if not hot enough it will pull apart like stringy cheese.

Especially the coarser grades of wrought have a distinctive stringy spaghetti like striated grain. When etched the grain can really show up and it's not much like anything else....
here's a couple of pics for comparison:
This guard is WI - note the length wise striations:

This guard is mild steel:

Some sources for wrought are: old wagon wheel rims, old gates and fences, old bridges, and old ship/paddle wheel anchor chains. The operative word is OLD...

There is an American company importing some from England (they call it pure iron), but it is pricey. Other sources include local blacksmiths (check out the ABANA and other blacksmithing sites for some near you) and on a couple of the custom knifemaking sites there have recently been some sales of pieces. Also IIRC Darren Ellis Knife Making Supplies (he's got a web site) has/had some for sale.

I've got about 50 lbs of WI (wagon wheel rim, bridge parts, and anchor chain) and I'm hoarding it! :grin:

There's more to the story but that's all I can type for now...

 

[In Over My Head]

Thanks to all for just the discussion I needed!

Gray Wolf: Your reply was very informative and exactly what I was asking for. I will keep an eye out for appropriate scrap now that I have some idea what items to to watch for. Scarce though it may be, it sounds like one good find might provide a lifetime supply.

I'm still wondering about any generalities as to when the use of wrought iron might have been starting to be displaced or was largely displaced by steels, and how that might have varied geographically.

 

[ameling]

The easiest place to find true wrought iron is the iron from the old wooden wagons - the wood wheels, and most of the iron from the running gear and box. They were generally made long enough ago that they should be wrought iron. I have a scrap dealer setting aside the wheel rims for me. He generally charges me $3 each - and can run anywere from 5 to 20 pounds. You do have to do a lot more work cutting/shaping to sizes that are closer to what you need.

There are some knife making web sites that sell wrought iron for some specialty work, but it gets real spendy - often $3 to $5 or more per pound.

Occasionally you can find some very old re-rod that is true wrought iron - but that's only when they break up some pretty old concrete.

The other major source is bridge iron. Those very old box-framed bridges are usually wrought iron. It was used for those bridges well into the 1900's because it resisted rusting so well. There are bridges built in the 1950's to 70's that have worse corrosion on the steel than 100+ year old bridges. I got a bunch of short sections of cut up wrought iron brige parts from a scrap dealer. They are between 3/4 x 3/4 on up to 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 inches square. Great to work with, but take so much extra time to make other sizes.

There is a company from Sweeden still producing true wrought iron. But it is so expensive to buy and ship that you really need to be working on a museum-quality reproductin/repair to justify it.

And then there is Pure Iron. A company out east had a steel mill make them a specialty run of chemically pure iron. It is a close to wrought iron as modern steel mills can produce. True wrought iron is a mixture or pure iron, some silica slag, and traces of carbon. That silica slag gives it that "grain" structure that resembles wood grain.

So this Pure Iron is just what its name implies - just iron. It works like butter - very much like the old wrought iron. But you don't have to work it at a white hot temp to keep it from cracking. That's just wrought iron with its slag inclusions. You can work Pure Iron almost till it's cold enough to touch without it cracking/splitting. Of course, with no carbon in it, you can't harden it at all. It bends easily cold. It's great stuff to use to make museum quality reproductions of early wrought iron work - without having to find and use true wrought iron.

Almost everything sold now days as "wrought iron" is either "cast iron" or actually mild or low carbon steel. And it doesn't have those slag inclusions that give it that internal "grain". Of course, "cast iron" is iron with lots of carbon in it and it is actually cast into it's final shape.

Common welding shop steel is usually designated A36 or 1018 or 1020, while 1095 is used for many knives. Those last two digits indicate the points of carbon in the steel. 95 means a lot, 18 means almost none. But once in a while you can find some 1005 steel. It has almost no carbon in it. It is generally used for what we call "bailing" wire or tie wire. It's used a lot for tieing together re-rod for cement construction - because it bends/flexes easily. Occasionally you can find some from the steel mills in sizes up to 1/4 thick - where they use it for binding bundles of steel rods together for shipping. But most places have gone to using the steel bands instead.

For most applications, it is very hard to tell the difference between modern low-carbon steel and true wrought iron. Most of it is in what you personally know about it.

I've started making up some all wrought iron trade axes - without any steel cutting bit. These replicate very early trade axes from the mid 1700's on back into the 1600's. Yes, they dull quickly. But that is just something you deal with when you want a true replica of a very early axe or hawk. Ditto all wrought iron knives. But I have been surprised at just how well they do hold an edge. I even have some all wrought iron hammers I made up for a Viking era blacksmithing shop. They hold up really well - with a few modifications in how I use them.

Wrought Iron can be truely wonderful stuff - once you learn its limitations and how to work it. But few people will be able to see the difference in an item made from it compared to using modern steels. So it's a matter of personal choice, and what you know about your gear.

Just some humble ramblings to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

I'm still wondering about any generalities as to when the use of wrought iron might have been starting to be displaced or was largely displaced by steels, and how that might have varied geographically.

Depending on the usage, wrought iron was used until after WW 1, but in the 1860's the Bessemer process for making steel was first developed. This process made steel in much larger quantities and cheaper than the previous processes. With further developments of this process in the 1870's, steel began to replace WI for many things such as rail road tracks.
Prior to the Bessemer process steel making was very labor intensive. Following is a simplified over view of 18th and early 19th century iron/steel making (there were other sources such as the use of bog iron, but the largest quantities were made using the following methods)
1) iron ore was processed into cast iron pigs
2) these pigs were worked into wrought iron by continued heating and beating with large water powered tilt hammers
3) wrought iron was then "cooked" in large ovens surrounded by charcoal and/or other carbon producing materials - the by product was known as blister steel
4) blister steel was then further refined into either
4a) shear steel - made by cutting the large blister steel pieces into smaller ones, bundling them, heating them, and then pounding them with tilt hammers - this homogenized the carbon and other trace elements through out the bundle (shear steel is essentailly a random pattern "damascus")
4b) after 1745 it blister steel was also refined into "cast" or crucible steel using the process developed by Benjamin Hunt. This process was basically re-melting blister steel in a large crucible and then casting it into ingots.

Up until the Bessemer process most of the western worlds quality steel was made either in England (due to various serendipitous factors the Sheffield area was most famous) or Germany.
Even after the Bessemer process was developed cast steel and shear steel continued to be made and used, mainly for fine cutlery by the Sheffield cutlers. These two processes for all intents and purposes ended around WW 1. There are a few knife making folks today making these steels in small batches.
Here's a link with more basic info and a good bibliography:[url] http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/h-carnegie-steel.htm[/url]

As Mike said there is also some "pure" iron being sold today and it is wonderful but pricey and is NOT the same as wrought iron.

 

[In Over My Head]

Mike & Gray Wolf,

Thanks for the education. You've given me useful information for choosing amongst what's commonly available, and great tips on possibly hunting up some wrought iron scrap.

I'm thinking of a time or two that I've seen old bridges that were just set off to the side when replaced. But I'm especially curious about an old bridge that is in the bottom of a ravine where I think it has been laying for more than 50 years since it collapsed. (If it hasn't been scavenged in the 20 years since I lived near it! )

Thanks, again.

 

[In Over My Head]

I'm resurrecting this very old post to add the following source of antique wrought iron.
http://www.oldglobewood.com/real-wrought-iron.html

This thread was so informative - a virtual tutorial on iron - that I thought it was deserving resurrection to add this.

 

[Artificer]

That is GREAT information and thank you for posting it!

Gus

 

[SgtErv]

Very cool. I was talking with our blacksmith at Pricketts Fort the other day about this very subject.

He basically said, "If you find some real iron, grab it up." He went on to explain that it can really only be found in old iron items like those described above, and so it's a matter of balancing the need to preserve antiques vs the desire to have PC material to work with. He and I both agreed that it's a case by case thing.

As if I needed something else to look for in antique stores haha.

The other side he mentioned is that not he nor many blacksmiths at present are used to working with the stuff, and enough to become expert with would cost a small fortune. Hoowwwwever...I owe him a favor, so maybe a few pounds of genuine iron would be cool for him to have!

Thanks for resurrecting this. There is all kinds of knowledge on this forum. I've spent lots of time digging through the old stuff but it's cool when one gets resurrected