Pedersoli Brown Bess ?’s

[Jeffrey Gardner]

Jim, are you trying to get my wife to kill me? I've already bought 5 of your rifles to build and leave to my kids when I go. And I just picked up one of your fowlers with a cherry stock in 20 ga. a piece I'd already told her I had no plans to get. Now we're talking authentic Besses? Ok, OK, I'll just order the headstone now, and plan on getting ready to send you another down-payment. I can trace my family back to the Mayflower, and had relatives standing on the Green that day in April, how could I ever resist a Kibler Bess? Just in case there's any doubt, add me to the 'yes' list.

 

[Flanders]

Lots of great information. I don't know much about military guns, so this has been really helpful.

I would think our kit selling price for a Bess would be around $1450 - $1500. This is based on what we need to get for our fowler, plus some of the added complexity. It would be, however very complete and easy to assemble. Do you think this would work for the re-enacting crowd?

Fine, I’ll order 2, one for me, one for my boy.

 

[Dave Marsh]

Lots of great information. I don't know much about military guns, so this has been really helpful.

I would think our kit selling price for a Bess would be around $1450 - $1500. This is based on what we need to get for our fowler, plus some of the added complexity. It would be, however very complete and easy to assemble. Do you think this would work for the re-enacting crowd?

I have a Colonial and a Woodsrunner and told my wife no more guns after I bought a Dave Person New England Fowler which is why I have not ordered your fowler. She agreed and all is well. However, the only other gun I would want in life is a historically correct Bess. Please don't make one as I would have to go back on my word. How soon can I pre-order?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hi,
Brown Besses issued to colonial troops during the F&I war were owned by the crown or the colony. They were not privately owned and they were returned to stores after wartime use. Colonists may have owned some old pattern guns and muskets cobbled together from old surplus Bess parts but there would not be wide private ownership of current pattern British muskets. They would be available after patriots ransacked colonial arsenals, captured ordnance ships, and took them from captured or dead British soldiers. In the early years of the Rev War, colonists were armed with old French and Dutch muskets, old pattern King's muskets, more current pattern King's muskets confiscated from colonial government arsenals, old commercially made muskets from the f&I war, muskets locally fabricated from old British, French, or Dutch parts, locally made fowling guns and English fowlers exported to the colonies. Some from southern colonies as well as Pennsylvania and Maryland would have rifles.

dave

This is correct.
Maryland had a great many King's Muskets, carbines, pistols, and swords on hand for use by the Maryland minute men, the militia and by Maryland Ranger Companies. They likely also had muskets using English (doglock) locks as well. Maryland issued these out to militia companies, and when hostilities broke out, there were no British forces to seize and return the muskets to The Crown, so were used by militia and Continental troops.

"That each man be provided with a good firelock and bayonet fixed thereon, half a pound of powder, two pounds of lead, and a cartouch-box, or powder horn, and a bag for ball, and be in readiness to act on any emergency."

"That until other arms are provided, the minute-men exercise with their own firelocks, but that as soon as others can be provided by the public, each colonel have delivered to him firelocks with steel ramrods and bayonets, cartouch boxes, worms, priming wires, and brushes fitted thereto, and flints, sufficient for his battalion, and he shall deliver to each captain in his battalion, sufficient for his company, who shall deliver and distribute the same to his company; receipts of all which deliveries shall be given, the men being answerable to the captains, the captains to the colonels, and colonels to the conventions, for the return of the said arms and accoutrements in good order, unless prevented by unavoidable accidents." Archives of Maryland Online 1776

LD

 

[kipcarter]

I'm not at all in with the crowd that buys Besses, but have wondered if it would be a viable product for us to make. What do you all think? Do you think with the 250th year coming up there would be increased demand?

I have a Bess and I would dump it in a minute for one of yours!!

 

[dave_person]

Hi Jim,
Yes, it would work wonderfully. A new Pedersoli Bess retails at around $1600 - $1800. Mirokus are not made anymore and a used one in good shape may sell for $700-$1000. Used Pedersolis run about the same if in good condition. None of them, no matter how well defarbed and reworked would have passed British ordnance inspection. The components are of wrong dimensions, the barrels are way too skinny, the inletting is mediocre at best and terrible at worst. One problem for you may be that the gun is big and uses up a lot of raw material, particularly the barrels, which are 1 5/16" to 1 7/16" across at the breeches. Another issue is which pattern? However, with your production methods you might be able to offer a pattern 1756 long land musket and a pattern 1769 short land. They share a lot of components such as the same lock, trigger guard and ramrod pipes and if you just cut back the 46" long land barrel to 42" it would serve for the short land without needing to be profiled differently. Those 2 patterns would cover the Rev War period very well and that is likely where the market is. Earlier patterns work for F&I reenacting but at least in New England, those groups have been aging and fading for years and do not benefit much from the AWI 250th.

dave

 

[kipcarter]

Not sure if there'd be enough for the cost.

I suspect that you underestimate the number of

 

[sturmkatze]

Earlier patterns work for F&I reenacting but at least in New England, those groups have been aging and fading for years and do not benefit much from the AWI 250th.

No super keen movies recently. Also, there is just some bit of gatekeeperism. Last, you need French reenactors… that’s the hard part.

 

[CyrusP]

I'm not at all in with the crowd that buys Besses, but have wondered if it would be a viable product for us to make. What do you all think? Do you think with the 250th year coming up there would be increased demand?

This is the most ridiculous idea we have ever heard of! Rubbish!!!

Sincerely,

Bandahar Patel and Davide Pedersoli

 

[FlinterNick]

Lots of great information. I don't know much about military guns, so this has been really helpful.

I would think our kit selling price for a Bess would be around $1450 - $1500. This is based on what we need to get for our fowler, plus some of the added complexity. It would be, however very complete and easy to assemble. Do you think this would work for the re-enacting crowd?

Hmmm well in my experiences working with reinactors, they don’t like spending a lot on the guns, which is why they settle for used pedersoli’s and Indian made guns over custom muskets by the rifle shoppe. Any used Pedersoli I’ve sold to them i usually have purchased used at a bargain and sold for just what they could afford.

I’m an accountant by trade, the assembly cost of a brown Bess is pretty high in terms of raw materials. It’s a very large gun there’s no way to sugar coat it.

The cost of the steel, the machining of the barrel and lock, stock etc. I think 1500 is on the lower end of what you could reasonable be in a cost benefit analysis.

Track of the Wolf recently has terminated the production of their Bess kit which was priced around 1400 for a parts set that was not ready to assemble, I’ve assembled two of those, with the locks being from a casted parts set, not the new assembled lock they were selling before covid.

I greatly respect your desire for authenticity, however i do think there needs to be a compromise with a gun such as a brown Bess.

Dave suggested that one pattern of the two most advanced patterns the P1756 and the P1769 second model, both are very similar.

I might suggest making smaller scale versions of both (but not as small as a Pedersoli) as the reinactor’s likely would not mind at all. For example coach and harness made a P1756 that was accurate to the reinactors but inaccurate to a Bess aficionado. This gun today to produce would probably be equal to the Pedersoli cost priced around 1500-1900.

However the Pedersoli in kit form is only 1100 at Dixie Gun Works. I can’t see a a similar kit going for much more with a longer 46” barrel.

Some of those bicentennial coach and harness guns were very nice, stocked in English walnut most were not very nice though.

 

[James Kibler]

I appreciate your thoughts, but how in the world do you think you are in a position to know what our price point should be for profitability? You know nothing about our processes and business. You saying you’re an accountant means nothing. Might as well say your a garbage man.

 

[FlinterNick]

I appreciate your thoughts, but how in the world do you think you are in a position to know what our price point should be for profitability? You know nothing about our processes and business. You saying you’re an accountant means nothing. Might as well say your a garbage man.

I meant no disrespect by making an assumption of your business just that a brown Bess is a large project. I was only considering the relevant cost of supply and demand and what prices are out there currently.

I think it’s a great idea to offer your own Bess. I think you have a lot of demand for it no matter what style you choose.

 

[Clark Badgett]

The model 1795 was the first Colonial American Made Rifle and it was an exact copy of the 1777 Charleville that’s how much they thought of that weapon, Bravo I think it was one of the best out there at the time.

Actually you are incorrect. The 1795, referred to as the Charleville pattern musket, was a direct copy French model 1766, and wasn’t a Colonial musket at all. And truth be told, the first few years of production most likely included surplus 1766 parts.

 

[FlinterNick]

Actually you are incorrect. The 1795, referred to as the Charleville pattern musket, was a direct copy French model 1766, and wasn’t a Colonial musket at all. And truth be told, the first few years of production most likely included surplus 1766 parts.

I always thought it was odd that we didn’t copy the 1774 Charleville pattern.

The 1774 pattern seemed to be the better quality design.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I always thought it was odd that we didn’t copy the 1774 pattern.

The 1774 pattern seemed to be the better quality design.

Exactly. I can only guess that it came down to frugality. There were 10,000 unissued 1766 musket in stores circa 1793 and there were lots of used but serviceable parts that could be utilized. The US wouldn’t use the 1777 lock until 1816, then the oddest of all things, in 1840 we used a 1774 style lock with a brass pan.

 

[FlinterNick]

Exactly. I can only guess that it came down to frugality. There were 10,000 unissued 1766 musket in stores circa 1793 and there were lots of used but serviceable parts that could be utilized. The US wouldn’t use the 1777 lock until 1816, then the oddest of all things, in 1840 we used a 1774 style lock with a brass pan.

It’s somewhat of a mystery. Dearborn and Knox I believe were ones who had the final choice in selecting the charleville to copy. The French moved toward the 1774 style lock in early 1770. I assume they went with the rounded lock over the beveled lock because it would be easier to cast or forge. I’ve always been a fan of that pattern, rugged and sturdy.

Were the early 1795 barrels the same as the 1766? my original 1766 barrel is very light, almost under 4lbs.

 

[Clark Badgett]

It’s somewhat of a mystery. Dearborn and Knox I believe were ones who had the final choice in selecting the charleville to copy. The French moved toward the 1774 style lock in early 1770. I assume they went with the rounded lock over the beveled lock because it would be easier to cast or forge. I’ve always been a fan of that pattern, rugged and sturdy.

Were the early 1795 barrels the same as the 1766? my original 1766 barrel is very light, almost under 4lbs.

I don’t think they were casting locks quite yet.
Now as far as I know, from many conversations with Kent Johns, the 1795 was pretty much a clone of the 1766 except the bands were thinner. The US even kept the anti-rotation lug, but seemed to only experimented with rammer retention springs.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve been Rev War reenacting for 40 years and would say that most can’t afford spending thousands of dollars on their kits. Most use Italian or Japanese guns, some Indian. And 80% don’t shoot live rounds or even clean their guns well. Just sayin.

Yea i agree, most I’ve seen are split between Italian and Indian made guns. Everyone now and then you do see someone with a rifle shoppe, track of the wolf Bess or even an original third model.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don’t think they were casting locks quite yet.
Now as far as I know, from many conversations with Kent Johns, the 1795 was pretty much a clone of the 1766 except the bands were thinner. The US even kept the anti-rotation lug, but seemed to only experimented with rammer retention springs.

The rammer springs on original guns, especially charleville’s were junky. I’ve only seen one original rammer retention spring that was not completed rotted out, it was on a P1766 but pinned to a lug underneath the barrel, not pinned directly to the stock. 1795’s were pinned directly to the stock I believe.

The 1766 bands are pretty thin, the 1774 bands are much heavier.

 

[Clark Badgett]

The rammer springs on original guns, especially charleville’s were junky. I’ve only seen one original rammer retention spring that was not completed rotted out, it was on a P1766 but pinned to a lug underneath the barrel, not pinned directly to the stock. 1795’s were pinned directly to the stock I believe.

The 1766 bands are pretty thin, the 1774 bands are much heavier.

Nope. The 1816 was the first US infantry musket to be made with a retention spring. This is one point I’m gonna cheat on my 1795 when I build it. I’m gonna use the French lug on barrel style you showed me.