From what I've read, the Brits made percussion Besses until the early 1850s (actually I don't know if they were all converted ones or if some were made as percussion from the "factory" :hmm: ). Anyhow, I'm guessing on this side of the pond, there were still many Besses floating around in the US by the time of our Civil War, and that many may have been converted to percussion by this time. Is there any record of such guns being used by either side in the CW, say, by reserve units perhaps?
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Percussion Besses in Civil War?
- Thread starter Musketeer
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Don't recall hearing about a converted Bess much at all in the U.S. for any time. In the CW there were Committee of Safety muskets, yes (copies of the Charleville) and later U.S. conversions to percussion. I believe Stonewall Jackson was killed with a ball from a smoothbore converted to percussion (friendly fire in the back from a N.C. picket guard), but not from a Bess. They'd have been at minimum 80 years old by then, most in the U.S. closer to 120 years old, and through two or three wars. Pretty tired pieces.
If it happened it would have been in despiration for Confederate use.
If it happened it would have been in despiration for Confederate use.
That's true about the ages of the Besses in America, but I know that Confederate troops in particular often used whatever was at hand and also a lot of imported stuff, so I figured there might be some connection there. I figure it's possible that somebody somewhere may have used a Bess during the CW (converted or original), but I was just wondering if anyone knew of anything documented. Not a big deal, my interest in the CW has been rekindled recently and I have also taken a shine to percussion Besses at the same time, so I'm trying to make some connection between the two. I figured such an attempt would be quite a stretch, but you never know if you don't ask. :grin: :hatsoff:
New Land Pattern muskets built in 1815 would have been less than 80 years old.
It cannot be forgotten that the Bess was the standard British infantry weapon until the 1839 Pattern musket entered service, and I'm sure the transition didn't occur overnight.
There are accounts here and there of Besses that saw use early in the War. There are also quite a few surviving pieces that have been converted to percussion by a gunsmith or blacksmith. It's not inconceivable that these types of conversions saw limited use at the War's outset.
It cannot be forgotten that the Bess was the standard British infantry weapon until the 1839 Pattern musket entered service, and I'm sure the transition didn't occur overnight.
There are accounts here and there of Besses that saw use early in the War. There are also quite a few surviving pieces that have been converted to percussion by a gunsmith or blacksmith. It's not inconceivable that these types of conversions saw limited use at the War's outset.
Stumpkiller said:
General Jackson was killed by a Confederate using either a .69 cal. Model 1816 converted from flint or a .69 cal. Model 1842 percussion musket. Committee of Safety muskets were not copied from French muskets but were made from patterns furnished by the individual colonies and were usually patterned after British Brown bess muskets.They would have been extremely rare,having been largely used up in the early days of the Revolution.The French Model 1763/1766 was the pattern for the first U.S. musket,the U.S. Model 1795 which was manufactured by the Federal armories of Springfield and Harper's Ferry.There is a slight difference between the two but both were issued to U.S. troops.Prior to the emergence of numerous repro U.S. muskets many Confederates were taking the Navy Arms 1763 muskets marked Charleville and using them in flint or converting them to percussion for early war use.This caused a shortage of correct weapons problem for those reenacting late 18th and early 19th century U.S. infantry since the only correct arm was the Navy Arms French musket with minor alterations.Now of course we have a wide range of arms available for reenactors in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Tom Patton
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
At the beginning of the Civil War, the US Army, while well trained and equipped, was small and in no position to fight a major war of any kind. Many regiments had not been brought together in years with companies spread around the various states and territories guarding national borders, fighting Indian and civil uprisings and generally keeping order. It was going to be a war fought by state troops - on both sides. Initially, the states were responsible for arming, training and equipping their own troops. This led, of course, to many, many problems and a study of the first year of the War (before mid to late 1862) show that both sides suffered through growing pains. Early on, many states were sitting on out of date weapons provided to them by the Federal Government under the Militia Act of 1808. Flintlock muskets predominated in the hands of many troops on both sides. Both sides used flint muskets through the early period.
Included in some of the inventories of the various states were, indeed, flintlock English muskets. A little background: The US Arsenal at Harpers Ferry had “English muskets” listed in inventory (some may have been captured/surrendered arms from the Revolution but the majority were India Pattern flint muskets purchased by the US from Britain in the 1790s) until at least the War of 1812 and it was the preferred weapon of the US Marine Corps until about that time. Some were also sent out to the various states for issue to their forces. At the beginning of the Civil War, many flint muskets were issued to state troops, among them those from England ”“ the Brown Bess as we know it now. For proof of the issue of flint muskets to state troops, read “Message from the Execttive of the Commonwealth, with Accompanying Documents, Showing the Military and Naval Preparations for the Defence of the State of Virginia, &c. &c.” at this link:
http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html
Fascinating stuff! It will take a while but it is worth it. Remember that the Commonwealth of Virginia was the wealthiest state in the Union and had what was considered the best military organization in 1861 ”“ at least on paper. As you read down through what was issued to the various organizations coming into active service as of June 17, 1861, you will see listings like:
(1) Altered Percussion Muskets
(2) Altered Muskets
(3) Rifle Muskets (a RARE one!)
(4) United States Flint Muskets (common)
(5) Flint Muskets (common, not saying what kind)
(6) Virginia Flint Muskets (common, made by the Virginia Manufactory of Arms, Richmond)
(7) Altered Virginia Rifles (longrifles made as the muskets above or by State Contractors for Virginia)
(8) Virginia Rifles (as above, unaltered)
(9) Double Barrel Guns (cavalry? Maybe?)
And, finally,
(10) English Flint Muskets
Virginia, in at least two instances for a total of 700 muskets, issued English flintlock muskets to its troops. Most seem to have gone to troops recruiting in the Western part of the state where the population was thin and, in some cases, not loyal to the Commonwealth.
Now, does this mean that the “Brown Bess” was later percussioned and re-issued to Confederate troops? Not necessarily, but it is possible, at least one likely Confederate percussion conversion of India Pattern Bess have sold recently at auction:
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=19336
While not in perfect condition, it does appear to be a legitimate military conversion using a Confederate hammer. But was it common to see a percussion Bess in anyone’s hands on either side? No, it was not. At best, both the Union and Confederate Ordnance people would have considered it an arm of the “4th Class”, caliber too large, and replacement parts unavailable for repair, etc. If indeed Confederate, it likely saw use by reserve troops called out in an emergency or by guards at various prisons, government facilities like factories or mines in out of the way places where Union troops would not be likely to show up but armed men were necessary to keep order. As far as use by combat troops, remember, the Union forces by mid ”“ 1862 had contract arms coming at an ever increasing rate and even the Confederate forces were much better armed than post-war apologists claimed, by that time they had ever increasing numbers of the P53 Enfield (many from the London Armory and made to British Government standards of finish and interchangeability) as well as excellent arms from Austria along with a sizable number of captured weapons gleaned from battlefields. Odd ball, substandard muskets were rare by late 1862, even the standard .69 smoothbore muskets were few and far between by the end of the War.
Sorry to ramble and I hope some of this helps to answer the question.
Included in some of the inventories of the various states were, indeed, flintlock English muskets. A little background: The US Arsenal at Harpers Ferry had “English muskets” listed in inventory (some may have been captured/surrendered arms from the Revolution but the majority were India Pattern flint muskets purchased by the US from Britain in the 1790s) until at least the War of 1812 and it was the preferred weapon of the US Marine Corps until about that time. Some were also sent out to the various states for issue to their forces. At the beginning of the Civil War, many flint muskets were issued to state troops, among them those from England ”“ the Brown Bess as we know it now. For proof of the issue of flint muskets to state troops, read “Message from the Execttive of the Commonwealth, with Accompanying Documents, Showing the Military and Naval Preparations for the Defence of the State of Virginia, &c. &c.” at this link:
http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html
Fascinating stuff! It will take a while but it is worth it. Remember that the Commonwealth of Virginia was the wealthiest state in the Union and had what was considered the best military organization in 1861 ”“ at least on paper. As you read down through what was issued to the various organizations coming into active service as of June 17, 1861, you will see listings like:
(1) Altered Percussion Muskets
(2) Altered Muskets
(3) Rifle Muskets (a RARE one!)
(4) United States Flint Muskets (common)
(5) Flint Muskets (common, not saying what kind)
(6) Virginia Flint Muskets (common, made by the Virginia Manufactory of Arms, Richmond)
(7) Altered Virginia Rifles (longrifles made as the muskets above or by State Contractors for Virginia)
(8) Virginia Rifles (as above, unaltered)
(9) Double Barrel Guns (cavalry? Maybe?)
And, finally,
(10) English Flint Muskets
Virginia, in at least two instances for a total of 700 muskets, issued English flintlock muskets to its troops. Most seem to have gone to troops recruiting in the Western part of the state where the population was thin and, in some cases, not loyal to the Commonwealth.
Now, does this mean that the “Brown Bess” was later percussioned and re-issued to Confederate troops? Not necessarily, but it is possible, at least one likely Confederate percussion conversion of India Pattern Bess have sold recently at auction:
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=19336
While not in perfect condition, it does appear to be a legitimate military conversion using a Confederate hammer. But was it common to see a percussion Bess in anyone’s hands on either side? No, it was not. At best, both the Union and Confederate Ordnance people would have considered it an arm of the “4th Class”, caliber too large, and replacement parts unavailable for repair, etc. If indeed Confederate, it likely saw use by reserve troops called out in an emergency or by guards at various prisons, government facilities like factories or mines in out of the way places where Union troops would not be likely to show up but armed men were necessary to keep order. As far as use by combat troops, remember, the Union forces by mid ”“ 1862 had contract arms coming at an ever increasing rate and even the Confederate forces were much better armed than post-war apologists claimed, by that time they had ever increasing numbers of the P53 Enfield (many from the London Armory and made to British Government standards of finish and interchangeability) as well as excellent arms from Austria along with a sizable number of captured weapons gleaned from battlefields. Odd ball, substandard muskets were rare by late 1862, even the standard .69 smoothbore muskets were few and far between by the end of the War.
Sorry to ramble and I hope some of this helps to answer the question.
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Russ T Frizzen
70 Cal.
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Who were all those 1841 rifles and 1842 muskets issued to?
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Russ T Frizzen said:
:rotf: Russ, take the time to peruse the attached document, they are there, you just need to spend the time to answer the question for yourself. It'll take an hour or so but you'll enjoy it.
Hint #1: For percussion muskets see
"Captain P.R. PAGE--Gloucester.
But there's more, look for "The Old Dominion Guard". Keep looking, there are lots more.
Hint #2: For possible "1841 Rifle" reference (or maybe the M1855) see:
"Captain P.N. HALE--Grayson"
And again, there's more, lots more. Look for "Harpers Ferry Rifles with sword bayonet" :wink:
The flint muskets underwent wholesale conversion to percussion early in the War by contractors in Richmond and Lynchburg. Flint guns were withdrawn from issue when more modern guns (percussion) could be issued and the converted guns were then issued to others so their flint muskets could be converted. It goes on and on.
Extra points for those that find "2,400 Enfield Musket Cartridges" :shocked2: issued by the Commonwealth at this early date.
Hint: Yorktown
Oh, you can just have all kinds of fun with this document.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
pappa bear said:
Thanks pappa bear, you'll enjoy all of the information that this contains. I hope others do too.
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
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Good Show! I have this document myself and it is indeed very good reading. Using these documents as well as reports from the Official Records and private manuscripts will give much more satisfaction to those of us who really "wanna know" than the general histories generally available. We just have to take the time to go through them.
As to the original question, I don't know for sure how many British flint/converted muskets were issued, but from the above, as well as reports from the pre-Mexican War period showing arms in store, there were at least a few. Confederate Long Arms and Pistols (Hill and Anthony) shows one example using an iron hammer head clamped between the jaws of the original flint cock. And I remember seeing a couple of others somewhere else, but I can't remember where right now.
:hatsoff:
As to the original question, I don't know for sure how many British flint/converted muskets were issued, but from the above, as well as reports from the pre-Mexican War period showing arms in store, there were at least a few. Confederate Long Arms and Pistols (Hill and Anthony) shows one example using an iron hammer head clamped between the jaws of the original flint cock. And I remember seeing a couple of others somewhere else, but I can't remember where right now.
:hatsoff:
From what I can see in Murphy and Madaus's book, CS Rifles and Muskets, there were no govt program for converting a large number of English Smoothbores to percussion. However, they were issued in flint. The 10th Tennessee Infantry was armed with Brit short land pattern muskets (aka 3rd model bessess) that had been picked up on the battlefield at New Orleans in 1815. They had been stored in an armory in Nashville till they went back to war in 1861. The 10th used them in action and to good effect at Ft Donelson in Feb 1862. The muskets and the regiment surrendered to Grant's army on Feb 15, 1862. Who knows what happened to the muskets after that.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
threepdr, excellent post and thanks for that great information on yet other issue of the Brown Bess to Confederate troops early in the War. You can be sure that by the time of the surrender in 1865 that those Besses were long gone to who knows where, the AOT was well armed and had better muskets to issue to its infantry. The book by Murphy and Madaus is an excellent resource.
Great info. Many thanks. :thumbsup: I just sorta assumed any Besses that saw service would have been converted, so it's doubly interesting to find a specific example like this where they were issued in original condition as flinters. THanks again. :hatsoff:
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Musketeer Von Blunderbuss, in those days governments had very little money and did not spend what they had frivolously. No one believed that there would be a need for the states' militia muskets so they stayed on issue and in storage as flint until the crisis erupted. Then it was Katey bar the door with everyone clamoring for the latest and the best. It took a while....
rebelyell
32 Cal.
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I also refer you to the book "Never for the want of powder" by C.L. Bragg. On page 138-139 it was reviewing 1863 production for the Augusta Powder Works. This included 40,000 .75 Caliber Buck & Ball Loads for the Brown Bess Muskets.
I certainly grant that this pales in comparison to to loads for Enfileds, but this certainly indicates useage.
I certainly grant that this pales in comparison to to loads for Enfileds, but this certainly indicates useage.
