Pictures of an "original Hawken."

[Jay Gardner]

Found this post on a duck hunting BB. This does not look like any Hawken I have ever seen. Thoughts?

http://www.duckboats.net/forum/wwwboard.html

 

Don't know couldn't find the picture. What is the title of the posting thread?

 

[sneakon]

The thread starts at: http://www.duckboats.net/forum/messages/78854.html
There is a series of pictures.

 

As far as I know, none of the original Hawken rifles has a back action lock on it. It appears to be too heavily built to be a small game rifle. Several of the known Hawkens have had their barrels shortened. I have a picture of one with about a 24" barrel with only the rear pipe left.
; Nope, never seen or heard of one with a back-action lock.
; John Bairde of Big Timber (used to be) would be the one to call or write to about that gun if your interest is more than passing.

 

[Zonie]

Veeeery Interesting! Like Daryl, I have never heard of a Hawkin rifle with a back action lock.
Also unusual is the brass nosepiece and brass triggerguard.
I believe most of the Hawkins used cast pewter nosepieces and iron trigger guards.
Could be real, might not be. I'm sure not smart enough to prove it one way or the other.

 

I just went through all the pictures of it and it seems to be genuine, but I wouldn't lay hard cash on it. The barrel appears to be a Remington barrel as the muzzle turning is one of the normal 'aspects' of a Remington 'trade' barrel. This is OK as most makers used barels from one place, locks from another, etc, etc.
: This might have been a "Special" order as it really doesn't 'fit' with the plains rifle Typical Hawken pattern. It might also have been stamped by someone else to increase it's value, way back when. This type of counterfitting was also common.
: It's certainly an interesting piece & the barel length appears to be genuine full length & the forewood looks funny as it's all out of proportion.
; There are too many 'perhaps' this, perhaps that, in this deal, for me.
; I'm also no expert on this.

 

[Donny]

I seem to recall Hawken sold out to T. Campbell in St. Louis abt 1849 ,who built guns using the Hawken stamps. Seems Hawken found out and was not pleased. Didn't Campbell stay in business long enuf to restock/rework some ML's into breechloader guns? My guess this gun was built in St. Louis by Campbell after Hawken left for Denver. If Campbell learned from Hawkens, that is the stock style he would have used, as this gun has. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Right - on Donny - I do recall seeing that once. Could be it isn't a Hawken as suspected. I am quite certain that Sam didn't use ANY back-action locks even on the local trade squirrel rifles. but then, I wasn't there. Man - what a time that was - difficult to imagine at best.

 

[Jay Gardner]

Is it possible that someone took a barrel from a damaged destroyed Hawken and fit it to a gun made by someone else?

 

Absolutely! Possible answer staring us right in the face.
; The stock's basic shape is that of a generic plains rifle, several different ones being made in St. Louis at tht time. The back action lock is the annomoly. Re-barreling a stock with a small bore or poor shooter with a barrel from a rifle with a broken stock would have been a normal venture, given the outrageous prices of rifles on the frontier. Is it reasonable to queston whether or not S. Hawken would put such a short Remington barrel on a back-action'd stock and stamp the barrel with his stamp? I say Remington as many rifles in St. Louis were barreled with Remington blanks that had turned muzzles for loading tools.
; That the barrel is so short, yet still turned for a loading tool is quite interesting. It almost seems likely that the stamp is a forgery FOR THAT BARREL, yet in the picture, appears to be of the correct age, etc.
; Sam, I'm certain wouldn't have put a stubby barrel on a full length plains rifle stock as the appearance is way out of proportion and not pleasing at all. The calibre might show a re-bore from a .50 originally.
: Was there a menton of twist? I understand that most Hawkens known today have deep grooves and 48" twists, and they shoot very well indeed with 80 to 160gr. 2F as denonstrated by whoever did the Hawken test so many years ago. I think the accompanying measure was for 80 or 85gr. and they shot that as well as doubling the charge.

 

You may find the answers to this question in Charles Hanson's book "The Plains Rifle". Hawkens rebored many a rifle brought to him by pioneers crossing the plains, and it was part of his trade to shorten barrels and rifle them with his trademark rifling. this is quite possibly one of those reworked guns. :m2c: