Pietta 1861, half cock question/problem

[Sandan027]

I took my revolver to the range yesterday because I was in BP withdrawal and had to get a fix. Right off the bat I noticed something strange. When I brought the hammer to half cock, the trigger pushed forward a bit, and the action made a barely audible click. The bolt dropped, the cylinder would turn freely. If I brought the hammer back any further than that I'd hear a louder click the andbolt would lock the cylinder( that's between half and full cock). Continue to full cock the action would click and the cylinder would remain locked. If I held the hammer back with my thumb and pulled the trigger the cylinder would lock up nice and tight (that's a good thing). With the hammer down or at full cok there was a noticeable amount of rotary play in the cylinder, indicating to me, the bolt wasn't fully seated in the cylinder recesses. BTW it was very easy, with the cylinder off to depress the bolt "top". I bent the trigger/bolt spring bolt arm and that obviously put more pressure on the bolt and made it resist downward pressure a bit more. So I'm trying to solve this. It sounds like a timing issue. It looks like the hammer is camming the bolt down correctly, but it's difficult to tell if that's the case. Might the two "arms" on the bolt where the hammer engages it be too close together? Also I'm seeing the cylinder getting peened on the side of the bolt notches where the oval cut out is. That seems like a hand issue. Could a piece have broken off the nose of the hand. When i had the revolver disassembled the hand looked good. Does any of this make sense? Anybody have any ideas? Please.
(Had to add I'm waiting delivery of an 1851 Navy .44)

 

[Mr. Troll]

I was just reading about this on another forum. The issue might be that the bolt is just a little too wide for the size of the recess in the cylinder. I would take it out and see if it fits completely in all 6 recesses completely. Peening of the recesses would be an indicator of this problem

 

[Sandan027]

Thanks, but I have that covered. When i first got the revolver I miked the recesses and the bolt to make sure it seated fully in the recesses. This problem just occured yesterday.

 

[hawkeye2]

Mr. Troll is right but you have checked the bolt/cylinder fit so that isn't a problem. I would recommend very slightly stoning the edges of the bolt where it goes into the notches to be sure there are no burrs there and to help ease it into the notches but that's just fine tuning and not a part of the problem. There are two springs in a revolver are somewhat prone to breakage, the hand spring and the bolt/trigger spring and bending either one usually aggravates the problem. I'm glad to see that you understand the most important time to check lockup is after the hammer starts it's fall, many simply check it at full cock.

If you haven't already I would begin by checking for burrs on all the internal parts and cleaning the edges with a fine stone. Pay particular attention to the cam and the arm of the bolt that rides over it. If either has burrs smooth them up but do not change the shape/dimensions of them (yet). The next thing would be to clean the cavity in the frame thoroughly with a brush and some solvent as there is often some chips in there held in by that grease they love to coat the revolver with. It probably wouldn't hurt to spread the arms of the bolt bending the one that rides over the cam but proceed with caution. It is possible to break the arm off, I have that T shirt, depending on how much it has been hardened and how you go about it. In a perfect revolver the bolt will fully engage at the same time the hand reaches the very end of its stroke and the hammer will stop just enough past the full cock notch to ensure full engagement. These guns are usually fitted to approximate that condition with the result being some play, wear of parts and battering of notches. There are some very advanced improvements like action stops to prevent over cocking and bolt drop stops but we don't need to go there. All that said it's time to reassemble the gun and check the timing. Now the gun should be smoother but the timing probably hasn't changed much if at all. With the cylinder out cycle the action to see when the bolt rises. It should snap up firmly just before full cock or ideally at full cock and the tip of the hand shouldn't move any further as the trigger engages the full cock. You will see that at this point you can over cock and the hand will continue to rise slightly which is hard on the parts as it's still trying to turn the cylinder. If I read your post right it sounds like the bolt is rising a little too soon and the hand may need a little adjustment too. I have found that the hand sometimes has a very sharp nose that wears off fast or even peens down somewhat so I usually dull the nose slightly before checking it's function.

 

[Sandan027]

I miked the bolt head and all cylinder notches when I first got the revolver. The bolt head fits well, deep and lengthwise, in the recesses. I'll stone the edges of the bolt head to clean them up though I didn't feel any burrs yesterday.
Thanks for the compliment on "after the hammer starts it's fall". I learned that from an old revolver shooter.
The frame cavity is completely cleaned, toothbrush, toothpicks and lots of solvent. I usually fill it with greae to keep any fowling out of the action parts. Whether that works or not I can't really tell. Anyhow it's all out now.
"It probably wouldn't hurt to spread the arms of the bolt bending the one that rides over the cam but proceed with caution" I was thinking about that and I don't really want another T-shirt so I'll be careful. To bend just the one arm, I'll clamp the frame side arm in a vise and use.....a pair of needlenose pliers to slightly bend the cam side arm. Do you by any chance have a better, more tried and true way?
Yes, you are reading me right, it does seem like the bolt is rising a bit too soon. If I'm getting what you're saying, I may need a new hand if the nose has worn down or peened down. If that's the case it would be possible to peen the nose back up yes? The bolt snaps up at full cock and the hand is at it's highest position, no movement, correct? The "click" into half cock should be audible correct?
Thanks hawkeye2. I'll try all that after I get home from work today. :bow:
Anyone else care to weigh in on this, please?

 

[hawkeye2]

I usually just stone a little off the tip of the hand running the stone parallel to the hand more or less. Just enough to take off the edge that is going to bend over or wear off quick. I have seen that edge, the part that will contact the ratchet first, sharp as a knife sometimes.

Your method of holding and bending the bolt leg is as good as any, just don't bend the other leg while you are adjusting things. It sounds like you are way ahead of me in eliminating some of the things I mentioned.

It's possible to lengthen a hand by laying it on a hard immovable surface and striking it mid way with a hammer and a punch if you don't have a small cross or ball pein hammer.

All the clicks should be sharp and distinct, not soft or muffled.

 

[Sandan027]

Not way ahead. I did my research and took,or at least tried, to take care of the common problems with colt style revolvers. Bolt/cylinder, stone off burrs, get everything nise and smooth, check arbor length, etc. Of course hearing it again makes the lesson sink in.
I couldn't think of any other way after I realized the frame side of the bolt arm needed to be flush with the frame. i even considered leaving the bolt in the frame and then trying to slightly bend the camside arm.
Thanks for the tip on peening the hand. I've got a ball peen hammer.

"All the clicks should be sharp and distinct, not soft or muffled."
That was the first thing that brought my attention to this problem.
Thanks again!

 

[M. De Land]

A cylinder is held tight at battery by more than just how tight the bolt nose fits the nock/notch.
It must also have a snug fit to it's axial pin or screw and it must fit the window through the frame snugly without binding.
If either of these is sloppy so will be the cylinder lock up irrespective of how well the bolt fits the cylinder notch.
Don't worry about the click noises they don't really mean much, focus on hammer function in relation to bolt, hand and trigger.
A bolt can't really lift to soon when the hammer begins it's rearward movement. The bolt nose needs to clear the nock before the pawl/hand starts preassuring the cylinder to rotate or it will drag on and bugger the notch back side as the nose struggles to clear. A very common timing problem in lots of revolvers that few seem to notice. It can often be felt as a slight bind and if present you will feel a burr raising on the back upper side of the notch.
The bolt fingers should remain parallel to the bolt body and not bent one way or the other for proper function and longevity.
You don't want those fingers flexing anymore than necessary as they should be square with the hammer stud at bolt lift and when they spring over the taper for reset. If they are bent then they have to flex twice as often for no practical gain. Again forget about the clicks and focus on function! One mans opinion with some experience to back it up.
The taper on the cam is to allow the bolt to spring over the fingers and reset as the hammer comes down and back to rest in preparation for the next bolt lift.

 

[Sandan027]

How snug a fit to the axial pin, by which I'm assuming on the colt repro you mean the arbor/cylinder pin? There is some play, I haven't miked the arbor nor the arbor hole in the cylinder, I will. There's a bit more play when the barrel is off the gun. Fore/aft play is minimal indicating that cylinder to frame fit is fine.
I re-read the owners manual, we don't need no stinkin' manuals do we?, and see this: "LOADING AND UNLOADING POSITION
Draw the hammer backward and you will feel the hammer click into its
first position (if you listen carefully, you can hear it). In this position the
cylinder rotates freely clockwise" I do feel that and listening carefully I can hear it. I checked the bolt arms and they were slightly convergent, cam side was pointing to the frame side. I spread the cam side to parallel and the "feel" described above was much more noticeable. So I feel I did something right. I draw the hammer back until I feel the hammer click into it's first position, now the revolver is in it's ready to be loaded position. You say don't worry about the click noises and that the bolt can't really lift too soon. If I draw the hammer back a tad more, I hear and feel the bolt rise and lock up the cylinder, half cock correct? I'm getting the idea that there's a difference between "laoding position" and half cock. True? Continue to draw the hammer vack and it goes to full cock. BTW, the trigger is immobile in both loading position and half cock, that's normal also, yes? Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?
Finally, with the revolver in full cock, i can draw the ahmmer back a little bit more maybe a sixteenth of an inch and the hand will move up. is that problem and if so how do I go about fixing it?
As to focusing on function, the revolver functions just fine. I guess I need better hearing protection. Hahaha.
"The bolt nose needs to clear the nock before the pawl/hand starts preassuring the cylinder to rotate or it will drag on and bugger the notch back side as the nose struggles to clear. A very common timing problem in lots of revolvers that few seem to notice. It can often be felt as a slight bind and if present you will feel a burr raising on the back upper side of the notch." I'm thinking that the peening I'm seeing is when I put the gun in loading position and then into half cock the bolt rises and if I manually rotate the cyliner the bolt head drags and then snaps into the nocth. Does that make sense?
M.D. thanks so much for your reply, it's made me think more about the actual functioning of the revolver in terms of what you mentioned, hammer/bolt/hand/trigger.

 

[M. De Land]

I was referring to the screw that secures the bolt to the frame and then the window in the frame the bolt nose passes through not the arbor to cylinder fit.
It is normal for the hammer to move a bit farther back after the bolt has dropped and locked the cylinder as long as it does not bind at the end.
The hand length test is to drag your thumb on the cylinder as you slowly cock the hammer and it should lift the cylinder to full cock ( bolt drop lock up) with no binding at the end of the hammer stroke.
You are eliminating inertia help when you do this and are also checking hand length.If the bolt will not drop than the hand needs to be stretched (lengthened), this presuming all burrs have been already cleaned up.
It sounds like the gun is working pretty well as it is but all of them can stand tuning up as they come from the factory for line work, for plinking most just need to be shot and will smooth up some from use.
Another thing to check is for any burrs in the hand frame tunnel which need to be cleared with a small Swiss file and then stoned. Don't change the tunnel profile just clear any burrs or casting lumps.
Some even need a bit of ratchet filing but this should not be done without quite a bit of experience first or you will be buying a new cylinder.
Sloppy Arbor to cylinder bore fit is almost never a problem from what I've seen however length some times needs addressing in it's relation to the frame hole depth. It should bottom out and at the same time maintain the cylinder barrel gap parallel against the wedge. They seldom are perfect but should be as close as is practical to parallel at about .010 gap.
Keep in mind these are one mans opinions about what works best and are not set in stone as the only way to do things.
The new guns seem far better fit than the ones made early on.

 

[Sandan027]

Aha, I misunderstood, the screw that secures the bolt to the frame is snug, the window is just big enough to allow the bolt to pass through with out binding.
No binding at the end of the hammer throw, that's good.
I'll give it the "thumb" test tonight. That's an excellent tip/test thank you. I've cleaned up the hand of any burrs. I haven't touched the hand channel I'll clean that up tonight too.
Now that I know my concern regarding what I thought was a problem with the half cock isn't a problem per se but rather some confusion about function I'll say the gun is working pretty well. A smoother tuned action to me, is always better. Makes the revolver more fun to shoot and let's me get to actually work on the gun resulting in more knowledge of how it works.
Just as I don't want another new T-shirt neither do I want to get a new cylinder yet so I'll leave that alone.....for now.
Thanks again, great help great tips.

 

[M. De Land]

The thumb drag test should be done on all chambers to insure the hand will push far enough on each ratchet tooth to bolt drop.
You will probably feel some difference here on one or more of the teeth at lock up. If they all lock up with the thumb drag test but you can feel some difference leave well enough alone.
Ratchet tooth and hand nose filing is fairly tricky and you can screw things up in a hurry!

 

[Sandan027]

The thumb drag test should be done on all chambers to insure the hand will push far enough on each ratchet tooth to bolt drop.
You will probably feel some difference here on one or more of the teeth at lock up. If they all lock up with the thumb drag test but you can feel some difference leave well enough alone.

appreciate the additional info. I'll take note of any difference but if it locks up, I'll call it good

Ratchet tooth and hand nose filing is fairly tricky and you can screw things up in a hurry!

I can certainly screw things up in a hurry. Practice makes perfect. :grin:

 

[Sandan027]

The hand length test is to drag your thumb on the cylinder as you slowly cock the hammer and it should lift the cylinder to full cock ( bolt drop lock up) with no binding at the end of the hammer stroke.
You are eliminating inertia help when you do this and are also checking hand length.If the bolt will not drop than the hand needs to be stretched (lengthened), this presuming all burrs have been already cleaned up.

"Thumb" test passed. No binding and lock up was tight. Tonight I'll smooth out the hand channel.
Thanks

 

[M. De Land]

I have a hand or two that no longer are of any use to the gun they were supposed to be fit two.
The price of learning how to fit them is the only way I can look at them and not feel sick about it.
Ratchet filing still makes me nervous and the only reason I ever learned anything about filing them, after reading what I could find on the subject was buying a used gun so mess up I couldn't hurt it much. Works fine now though and it taught me all sorts of things about how a hand works in cylinder rotation and it's relation to the tooth during the lift.
Also not all ratchets and hands work the same with each other.
Some maintain tooth contact and some slide by and cam over at the top of the stroke.
I've barely scratched the surface in what there is yet to learn about them.
I also learned that hand width is as important as length on most all of them.

 

[Sandan027]

Lot's of interesting points. They have put the thought in my mind that getting a junker to work on would be worth it.

 

[Sandan027]

Final update. My 1851 arrived and I used it to compare the 1861 to. '61 is just fine. The last thing I did was deburr the cylinder/bolt notches and she locks up just fine.

 

[M. De Land]

Good job, sounds like you have some fine shooters to try and wear out with use.

 

[Sandan027]

Good job, sounds like you have some fine shooters to try and wear out with use.

Thanks, M.D. Couldn't have done it without you and Hawkeye. I'm working on wearing them out. I took 'em both to the range on Monday (5/30), figured I'd honor our WBTS vets by burning some black. I never even fired the .36 '61. The .44 '51 was just too much fun. 25grns FFFg, .454 RB with a lubed wad in between. The .454's were tough to ram. Tight fit. Might be that the loading lever is short as it's a 4 7/8" bbl. Guess I should/could mike the chambers and bore, maybe a .451 would work. Anyhow the tough ram was more than worth it. She shot about 6" high at 20 yds. I didn't play with working up a load as I was having too much fun just blasting away.

 

[M. De Land]

You may want to think about buying or making a cylinder loading press.
I use one all the time in match work for my cap-n-ball revolvers.
Save the underbarrel lever for when your in the field.