pistol velocity............

[bob1961]

what would be the velocity be fer a muzzleloader .50 - .54 flintlock pistol with a 12" barrel compaired to say a .357 mag with a 6" barrel fer hunting..................bob

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

what would be the velocity be fer a muzzleloader .50 - .54 flintlock pistol with a 12" barrel compaired to say a .357 mag with a 6" barrel fer hunting..................bob

I hope this doesn't get too tedious or boring--but there is an answer in here.

This kind of problem is difficult to answer as I don't know what bullets and powder charges you are wanting to use. OR are you really wanting to know if these two different types of firearms are comparable to each other for actual field use and typical hunting scenarios?

First, let's throw out present day factory loaded .357 ammo, which is (of course) underpowered compared to what good handloads will do. Let's say that the 158gr JSP in the .357 Magnum is going to be moving around 1450 - 1500 fps. It's been a while since I have chronographed any of these, and my muzzleloading pistols were 9" - 10" bbl lengths instead of the 12" you mention. But I still have some velocity numbers that are probably good enough to illustrate what you're wanting to find out.

Now the bullet from that .50 or .54 cal pistol is probably barely going to be supersonic, unless we go absolutely ape with the powder charge, and stay with using a round ball for a projectile. We're looking at maybe 1100-1200 fps with a 175gr - 225gr round ball. That puts it's kinetic energy at the muzzle at 560 - 605 ft.lbs. Velocity is lower, but there is more bullet mass, so things may be more "even" than the numbers indicate.

Remember though, that in muzzleloading firearms, the velocity can only be increased up to a certain point, then we increase bullet weight to make up for that lost momentum.

If we just look at round ball Momentum (MV) for our comparison, the .54cal has about a 4% edge over the .357, while the .357 still has a 11% edge over the .50 cal ball.

For the next scenario, we'll use a 350gr .50cal conical at 850fps and a 400gr .54cal conical at 800fps.

By switching to using conicals in the muzzleloader, we are going to lose significant velocity but pick the lost energy back up through the increased bullet mass. It works the same for either the .50 or the .54 caliber. We're going to end up with roughly the same amount of kinetic energy as if we we were using the faster (though lighter) round balls--about 560 to 569 ft.lbs. at the muzzle.

BUT, the MV has improved greatly due to the much heavier weight of the conicals. Now we see a 25% difference with the .50cal and a 35% difference with the .54 caliber. These values both represent increases on the .357's value.

Kinetic Energy at the muzzle
6"bbl .357 Magnum, 158gr bullet@ 1520fps, 790 ft.lbs.
12"bbl .50cal, 175gr round ball@ 1200fps, 560 ft.lbs.
12"bbl .54cal, 225gr round ball@ 1100fps, 605 ft.lbs.
12"bbl .50cal, 350gr conical @ 850fps, 562 ft.lbs.
12"bbl .54cal, 400gr conical @ 800fps, 569 ft.lbs.

Momentum (MV) at the muzzle
6"bbl .357 Magnum, 158gr bullet@ 1520fps, 237000
12"bbl .50cal, 175gr round ball@ 1200fps, 210000
12"bbl .54cal, 225gr round ball@ 1100fps, 247500
12"bbl .50cal, 350gr conical @ 850fps, 297500
12"bbl .54cal, 400gr conical @ 800fps, 320000

Notice please, that none of this conjecture takes into consideration factors such as bullet composition, or penetration depth, or expansion ratio, et cetera.... Most of these are subjective to conditions that are variable. (like what happens if the bullet hits a bone--that kind of thing)

Now... whether any of this equates to real world performance on whitetail deer, for example, who can really say? We can generate all kinds of different comparisons on paper... but "the only true way" to find that out--is to field test in a real hunting situation.

I hope this has helped you out, it gave my tired ol' brain a good workout, and I also had to dig out some old loading logs that I'll enjoy looking at for my after dinner evening reading material.

Shoot Safely,
WV_Hillbilly

 

[arcticap]

I appreciate the difficult analysis of the selected calibers. I suppose a .45, 12 inch barrel loaded with a 245 gr. maxiball & 80 grains might provide a more equal comparison in velocity and maybe even in performance. Do you think this load might actually exceed the .357's effective performance?(I hope so) :thanks:

 

[bob1961]

thank ya fer the numbers so i can git the jist of it all....bout 10 years ago i used a friends .357 mag with 6" barrel....i brought home the venison that day but it seemed a little small to me compaired to the flintlock pistol................bob

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

I appreciate the difficult analysis of the selected calibers. I suppose a .45, 12 inch barrel loaded with a 245 gr. maxiball & 80 grains might provide a more equal comparison in velocity and maybe even in performance. Do you think this load might actually exceed the .357's effective performance?(I hope so) :thanks:

That's a pretty stout load, isn't it? I hope that gun is made very solid and strong. As far as that 245gr bullet and 80gr charge exceeding the .357... It will depend on what velocity you can get. The problem is though, that more powder won't always help in a pistol length barrel. Many times additional powder just adds to the flash, smoke, noise, and recoil, but doesn't really make a whole bunch of difference in velocity.

In reality, a heavier bullet (like a 300gr 45 cal. or heavier) may be a better choice, as it is wanting to "hold back" the burning powder charge for a longer period of time... which allows the charge to be more thoroughly consumed and makes a more efficient load... supposedly.

That phenomenon is a complicated thing, and gets into theories and ballistics and lots of calculations that are more than I think either of us want to get into here.

But I do think there is probably a cross-over point where the muzzleloading pistol beats the .357 on all paper ballistics, and most likely in all field performance as well. But remember too; that particular bullet and powder charge may not be a suitable load to use constantly due to various other factors that are not controllable.

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

thank ya fer the numbers so i can git the jist of it all....bout 10 years ago i used a friends .357 mag with 6" barrel....i brought home the venison that day but it seemed a little small to me compaired to the flintlock pistol................bob

I don't usually hunt with handguns that much, but also think that a .357 load from a handgun is marginal on deer sized game, though it might be effective enough to work. But then I tend to choose head shots first regardless of what gun I happen to be using... IF I have a very steady rest for the shot and the time enough to do it, otherwise I take the typical "front shoulder" shot--again depending on the opportunity. (BTW, I think a .41 Magnum is a better choice for a modern cartridge revolver hunting gun for deer.)

Shoot Safely, and use enough gun.
WV_Hillbilly

PS I believe that you can NEVER have too much firepower.

 

[arcticap]

Thank you WV_Hillbilly, you have illuminated the subject nicely for me. Traditions lists 80 grains as the maximum load, but I won't try to load it beyond an efficient amount. :hatsoff:

 

[Maestro]

The problem is though, that more powder won't always help in a pistol length barrel. Many times additional powder just adds to the flash, smoke, noise, and recoil, but doesn't really make a whole bunch of difference in velocity.

:agree: I don't claim to be an expert, but THAT (barrel length) is a VERY important part of why BP pistols aren't effective for hunting big game (from what I've learned). No matter how much powder you put in, the "extra" won't be burning up until it's out of the barrel at which time it'll do you no good. (Hence, the smoke & fire as you said.)

 

[bezoar]

That 12 inch barreled bp pistol is fine for big game. by big game i mean you assume moose, carribou, elk, maybe a bison or two. The 12 inch .54 with a round ball or a conical is going to be carrying ALOT more energy then the .45 colt, .44 caliber cap and ball revolvers that were found to be very good for buffalo killing, and do not forget the "explorers" we went thru the american northwest west and upper plains with a 54 rifle and a 54 -58 caliber pistol and got alot of meat.

the real question is "is the 357 going to transfer the same amount of energy into the critter that the bp pistol will"