Poll: Will the closing of Goex dissuade you from buying a Flintlock?

[Daryl Crawford]

I'll help you out. Here is one of the rules you agreed to when you joined:

17: We do not discuss Politics outside the Politics forum.

Talk politics all you want on the political forum. Become a supporting member and discuss politics to your hearts content in the acceptable forum. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to save you some future hassle with moderators.

 

[Sixgun_Symphony]

I'll help you out. Here is one of the rules you agreed to when you joined:

17: We do not discuss Politics outside the Politics forum.

Talk politics all you want on the political forum. Become a supporting member and discuss politics to your hearts content in the acceptable forum. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to save you some future hassle with moderators.

Actually, we had been discussing why Goex went out of business. You should just leave the conversation rather than disrupt it.

 

[Sixgun_Symphony]

BTW, I reported you to moderators for being a troll.

I am not trying to be a jerk, you should just leave before there is future hassle with moderators.

 

[Onojutta]

There are many reasons why business decisions are made. I am sure that no one here has seen Hodgdon's books and fully understands all of the economic factors that forced the decision. Political affects of anti-gun taxes? Maybe. But taxes are usually just passed on to the customer. We have the highest gas taxes in the nation here in PA, but I've never heard of a gas station going out of business because of that. No, we just pay higher prices at the pump. Businesses have many other impactful costs besides taxes. Health care costs, pensions, utilities, real estate, etc. It is likely that their board decided it was a better financial play to get out of one market to focus on another for any number of reasons.

Now there is hope. As I posted separately, I have been told by one vendor that its distributer plans to begin carrying Schuetzen by the end of the month. And if Hodgdon is trying to sell their plant to someone who will continue production, that will likely be Schuetzen or someone else who is willing and able to meet the demand. Have faith in capitalism. Where there is demand, it will be met with supply.

 

[Eterry]

When you joined the MLF you agreed NOT to discuss making black powder, PERIOD!
You also agreed NOT TO DISCUSS POLITICS outside the Politics Forum.

If you can't follow those simple rules go join a Forum that allows it, because your days are numbered here.
End of discussion.

 

[qz2026_1]

Hodgdon made a business call. I find it interesting that one would brag about immediately running out and buying 50 pounds. To each his own I guess. Reminds me of the toilet paper fiasco we experienced last year. But, hopefully, the European manufacturers will fill the void. That is if they can even get it shipped and off loaded. Currently there are tons of container ships sitting off all the ports that cannot be off loaded. But, to answer the question, this set back shouldn't dissuade the purchase of BP guns. Will just have to see if someone decides to invest in the Goex brand. Kind of risky considering the capital investments that needs to be made rebuild/repair the facility and address the stockpiles of explosives that are being stored on the property. I am also a Milsurp collector and ammunition has significantly dried up there. But, the market for such guns has not changed. It continues to be brisk.

 

[Sixgun_Symphony]

We were discussing why Goex went out of business. But we can't discuss the reasons why?

There are lots of other forums, the moderators should be moderating themselves and their pet trolls here. I am done with this place.

 

[deerstalkert]

When you joined the MLF you agreed NOT to discuss making black powder, PERIOD!
You also agreed NOT TO DISCUSS POLITICS outside the Politics Forum.

If you can't follow those simple rules go join a Forum that allows it, because your days are numbered here.
End of discussion.

as a moderator you might consider moderating your tone a little, remember , a Forum needs forum members to exist, members don't need a forum to exist. just a suggestion

 

[Flint.]

No, in fact I’d rather shoot my flintlocks now more than ever because of the limited supply of caps for my caplocks.

 

[Joemolf]

340

360 too

 

[DixieTexian]

Hodgdon made a business call. I find it interesting that one would brag about immediately running out and buying 50 pounds. To each his own I guess. Reminds me of the toilet paper fiasco we experienced last year. But, hopefully, the European manufacturers will fill the void. That is if they can even get it shipped and off loaded. Currently there are tons of container ships sitting off all the ports that cannot be off loaded. But, to answer the question, this set back shouldn't dissuade the purchase of BP guns. Will just have to see if someone decides to invest in the Goex brand. Kind of risky considering the capital investments that needs to be made rebuild/repair the facility and address the stockpiles of explosives that are being stored on the property. I am also a Milsurp collector and ammunition has significantly dried up there. But, the market for such guns has not changed. It continues to be brisk.

I'd imagine capital costs alone will be pretty steep. Given their safety record, I'd bet they've been patching things together with bailing wire and duct tape for a couple decades or so. Lots of manufacturers want to cut costs and increase profits at the same time. I work in a plant that has been around since the 1950's and it took about a decade for the new owners to figure out that you have to spend a little money on upgrading things if you want to keep them running.

 

[Ponderosaman]

I'd imagine capital costs alone will be pretty steep. Given their safety record, I'd bet they've been patching things together with bailing wire and duct tape for a couple decades or so. Lots of manufacturers want to cut costs and increase profits at the same time. I work in a plant that has been around since the 1950's and it took about a decade for the new owners to figure out that you have to spend a little money on upgrading things if you want to keep them running.

Even more so, commodity type products are difficult to make money on due to the fine margins. Usually consumers are very price driven for commodities. The only way to make any money is to proverbially paint your product a different color. Goex was the American brand, which along with the price and availability is why I bought it. I'm looking forward to trying the European brands. Hopefully I don't run out before powder becomes available again.

 

[4575wcf]

This is a letter from Hodgdon president posted on another site.



"Thanks for your letter dated 29 September, 2021.

We have received a fair amount of feedback since we announced our decision last week, much of it in a similar sentiment to your letter.

To be clear, our preferred outcome in this situation is to be able to sell the GOEX operation and are actively working to make this happen. We will continue these efforts at our best possible speed as we know we are on a tight timeline for the end of the year.

At the Hodgdon Powder Company, we have used the tagline “The Gunpowder People” for some years now. Most of us are handloaders, shooters and muzzleloader shooters and have a lot of passion for the sport. While this is not the outcome we would have preferred, our focus now is on pursuing a sale. We will work as hard as we can for this outcome.

Thanks for reaching out.

Aaron Oelger I Vice President of Sales & Marketing I Hodgdon Powder Co. I 913.745.0776"

This attempted sale of the Blackpowder Branch at Hodgdon's is great news! Hopefully a buyer will come forward, move the operation to a less regulated area, and get production ramped up and going again. I became interested in muzzle loaders sometime in the very late '60's and was not out of my teens before I got ahold of my first one. Goex was Dupont then, and you could get the powder, 1F, 2F, 3F and 4F at just about any sporting goods retailer. They kept it in a bright red metal horizontal box that was lightly tacked together to let go easily in those days. Price was around $7.50 a lb, and nobody ever heard about anyone using it for anything but gunpowder. Now if I can just win the powerball, contact Hodgdon, and purchase the division, we are all set.

 

[Sam squanch]

Sorry , black powder is probably over when the ATF gets a new director appointed. The idiots in charge are trying hard to get any and all controls in under the radar. They don’t want ordinary people with anything dangerous.

 

[4575wcf]

Hodgdon has had some problems. A lab explosion killed the inventor of Pyrodex, Dan Pawlak in the '70's. With the coming and going of other semi-smokeless substitute powders, I assume the production of those has been problematic as well. There were a couple of incidences with their black powder division, the latest in June/July 2021. There has always been a hush, hush about these occurrences, but I am sure the lawyers got their way to an extent. Since Hodgdon has an excellent reputation and safety record in their smokeless powder production, it seems to me the problems came about by modernizing the blackpowder making process; back in the days of the early Dupont/Goex plant the powder was produced in pretty much the exact way it always has been. Probably trying to increase production to modern levels interfered with the tried and true safety measures that must remain in place. Hopefully a buy out and a return to traditional, safe, relatively small scale, and careful manufacturing will take place. Those dyed in the wool black powder shooters such as myself are more in the minority today, so I think we do not need the likes of Colonel George Washington Rains and the Augusta Powder works to keep us going.

 

[DixieTexian]

Even more so, commodity type products are difficult to make money on due to the fine margins. Usually consumers are very price driven for commodities. The only way to make any money is to proverbially paint your product a different color. Goex was the American brand, which along with the price and availability is why I bought it. I'm looking forward to trying the European brands. Hopefully I don't run out before powder becomes available again.

Given that Goex was that last domestic producer of black powder due to regulations and such, I would tend to assume that black powder is more of a specialty chemical than a commodity. A commodity has to be wildly available on the market with multiple alternative suppliers. Specialty chemicals don't have a plethora of suppliers and tend to command a better margin. Government contracts and such could easily distort market forces enough to change that dynamic, however.

Hodgdon has had some problems. A lab explosion killed the inventor of Pyrodex, Dan Pawlak in the '70's. With the coming and going of other semi-smokeless substitute powders, I assume the production of those has been problematic as well. There were a couple of incidences with their black powder division, the latest in June/July 2021. There has always been a hush, hush about these occurrences, but I am sure the lawyers got their way to an extent. Since Hodgdon has an excellent reputation and safety record in their smokeless powder production, it seems to me the problems came about by modernizing the blackpowder making process; back in the days of the early Dupont/Goex plant the powder was produced in pretty much the exact way it always has been. Probably trying to increase production to modern levels interfered with the tried and true safety measures that must remain in place. Hopefully a buy out and a return to traditional, safe, relatively small scale, and careful manufacturing will take place. Those dyed in the wool black powder shooters such as myself are more in the minority today, so I think we do not need the likes of Colonel George Washington Rains and the Augusta Powder works to keep us going.

Safety culture in the chemical industry in general has improved tremendously in the last few decades. It doesn't tend to regress.

I do wonder if the idea of relying on foreign companies to secure a supply of black powder for military use will make purchasing the last remaining domestic factory a more attractive move for companies. From a national security standpoint it makes sense and could command a higher price for their product. If course that translates into higher prices for those of us who use it for sporting purposes, but at least it would be available.

 

[Kilo Charlie]

I'm in the queue for a rifle from TVM; a Southern flintlock. Just because I live where supplies are scarce, I believe I'm going to get a percussion lock and drum with the rifle.
But really, I'd still buy just a flinter and figure something out if the loss of GOEX affected me. I shot Swiss and, IIRC, Dynamit Nobel? when I lived in Europe and it worked just fine.

 

[4575wcf]

Given that Goex was that last domestic producer of black powder due to regulations and such, I would tend to assume that black powder is more of a specialty chemical than a commodity. A commodity has to be wildly available on the market with multiple alternative suppliers. Specialty chemicals don't have a plethora of suppliers and tend to command a better margin. Government contracts and such could easily distort market forces enough to change that dynamic, however.



Safety culture in the chemical industry in general has improved tremendously in the last few decades. It doesn't tend to regress.

I do wonder if the idea of relying on foreign companies to secure a supply of black powder for military use will make purchasing the last remaining domestic factory a more attractive move for companies. From a national security standpoint it makes sense and could command a higher price for their product. If course that translates into higher prices for those of us who use it for sporting purposes, but at least it would be available.

As I mentioned before a few minutes of research will reveal that the most likely cause of the explosion was a 1000 lb batch of wheelcake contaminated with quartz coming into contact with an aluminum corning device. I doubt that combination sparked, I can find no evidence that it would, so it must have generated heat. I am pretty sure the corning process historically involved no metal parts whatsoever.

 

[chazz75]

For me, yes it absolutely impacts whether or not I will buy another flintlock, or another BP firearm whatsoever. I am only an occasional hobbyist. I own 1 flintlock and a few caplock rifles and 1 caplock pistol. If supply of BP is not there, it kind of defeats the nature of the sport. I am one of those that would be hurt and driven away from the sport. Seeing some people panic buy tells me that people have learned nothing from the other sides of shooting sports. I have no reason to keep a cabinet full of firearms that I cannot take out and shoot once in a while. Maybe time to take up fishing?

 

[4575wcf]

I actually changed to a no. Thought about it a lot today and decided to cowboy up. Or mountain man up in this case.

Good on you! I voted no, no meant no and I will rebuild, shoot and enjoy my little flinter if I have to hide in the basement to do it.