Poor man’s guns

[M. De Land]

It's not necessary when using certified barrel steel and is the whole point.

Actually I've never thought the idea of proof testing a very good thing as one can actually cause a stress related problem that would not have ever happened on it's own by over stressing to see if it will hold. Still, I have never let an arm of any kind leave my shop without at least test firing a factory pressure level load in it.

 

[longcruise]

They could be referring to modern centerfire cartridges.

I think so. Let's look at this from a practical and legalistic standpoint. Why would any manufacturer of any item recommend that their product be used for anything other than what they have made it for. This is legal SOP all across industry. If I'm making ball bearings, why would I recommend that they be used in sling shots.

I asked you earlier in this topic just what is the PSI rating required for certification of barrel steel. None of your response to that addressed the question.

I was present and know for a fact it was black powder and a short started ball.

I was present at a shoot some years ago where a shooter next at the next bench fired three shots with short started balls. No blow ups. It makes me wonder how many times your friend had previously loosed short started loads? Was there any cumulative damage that finally let go?

Many unanswered questions and many unknowns.

 

[M. De Land]

I think so. Let's look at this from a practical and legalistic standpoint. Why would any manufacturer of any item recommend that their product be used for anything other than what they have made it for. This is legal SOP all across industry. If I'm making ball bearings, why would I recommend that they be used in sling shots.

I asked you earlier in this topic just what is the PSI rating required for certification of barrel steel. None of your response to that addressed the question.

I was present at a shoot some years ago where a shooter next at the next bench fired three shots with short started balls. No blow ups. It makes me wonder how many times your friend had previously loosed short started loads? Was there any cumulative damage that finally let go?

Many unanswered questions and many unknowns.

The shock load figures are what is critical not PSI numbers and the shock load numbers for 12L14 cold rolled is approximately 5 where as barrel certified steel is at least 42 according to the metallurgical report I was quoting. I don't have the documentation of DOM shock loading nmbers but know for a fact it is not certifiable for any gun barrel application, black powder or smokeless. Again it is the shock load resistance not PSI strength. Though related they are not the same !
The facts of the blown up rifle I showed pictures of were investigated, known and documented personally, this is not speculative but factual.

 

[longcruise]

The shock load figures are what is critical not PSI numbers and the shock load numbers for 12L14 cold rolled is approximately 5 where as barrel certified steel is at least 42 according to the metallurgical report I was quoting. I don't have the documentation of DOM shock loading nmbers but know for a fact it is not certifiable for any gun barrel application, black powder or smokeless. Again it is the shock load resistance not PSI strength. Though related they are not the same !
The facts of the blown up rifle I showed pictures of were investigated, known and documented personally, this is not speculative but factual.

If they are related then there must be a comparable number. We know that barrel steel must withstand pressure exceeding 62,000 to 65,000 PSI. We don't come anywhere near that with BP.

In particular; "not certifiable for any gun barrel application, black powder or smokeless." Who or what determines cert specs for black powder? It would seem that if there were any no barrel maker would dare to fail following them. Further, those specifications would probably be commonly known in the ML community and barrel makers would proudly assert the use of "certified" steel.

As to the documentation of the burst that you described I'm not overwhelmed. It fails to account for human nature and the tendency to deflect responsibility even when there are no consequences. After years of taking auto accident reports from all parties involved in the event I can tell you that it's extraordinarily rare to have multiple parties agree on the most pertinent facts. It's internalized cognitive dissonance at work. These are mostly honest people protecting their own self image and beliefs about themselves.

Here's a suggestion for you. And not offered in anything other than good faith; why don't you acquire a 12L14 barrel and do some serious experiments such as repeated discharges of short started balls or repeated discharges of serious overloads. It would be interesting to see the results.

 

[cebusey]

If they are related then there must be a comparable number. We know that barrel steel must withstand pressure exceeding 62,000 to 65,000 PSI. We don't come anywhere near that with BP.

In particular; "not certifiable for any gun barrel application, black powder or smokeless." Who or what determines cert specs for black powder? It would seem that if there were any no barrel maker would dare to fail following them. Further, those specifications would probably be commonly known in the ML community and barrel makers would proudly assert the use of "certified" steel.

As to the documentation of the burst that you described I'm not overwhelmed. It fails to account for human nature and the tendency to deflect responsibility even when there are no consequences. After years of taking auto accident reports from all parties involved in the event I can tell you that it's extraordinarily rare to have multiple parties agree on the most pertinent facts. It's internalized cognitive dissonance at work. These are mostly honest people protecting their own self image and beliefs about themselves.

Here's a suggestion for you. And not offered in anything other than good faith; why don't you acquire a 12L14 barrel and do some serious experiments such as repeated discharges of short started balls or repeated discharges of serious overloads. It would be interesting to see the results.

The experiment to have validity must be performed objectively and not by any individual who does not have an open mind.

 

[longcruise]

The experiment to have validity must be performed objectively and not by any individual who does not have an open mind.

Agreed . I'd do it myself but on my fixed income it's unaffordable to waste a barrel.

 

[M. De Land]

If they are related then there must be a comparable number. We know that barrel steel must withstand pressure exceeding 62,000 to 65,000 PSI. We don't come anywhere near that with BP.

In particular; "not certifiable for any gun barrel application, black powder or smokeless." Who or what determines cert specs for black powder? It would seem that if there were any no barrel maker would dare to fail following them. Further, those specifications would probably be commonly known in the ML community and barrel makers would proudly assert the use of "certified" steel.

As to the documentation of the burst that you described I'm not overwhelmed. It fails to account for human nature and the tendency to deflect responsibility even when there are no consequences. After years of taking auto accident reports from all parties involved in the event I can tell you that it's extraordinarily rare to have multiple parties agree on the most pertinent facts. It's internalized cognitive dissonance at work. These are mostly honest people protecting their own self image and beliefs about themselves.

Here's a suggestion for you. And not offered in anything other than good faith; why don't you acquire a 12L14 barrel and do some serious experiments such as repeated discharges of short started balls or repeated discharges of serious overloads. It would be interesting to see the results

If they are related then there must be a comparable number. We know that barrel steel must withstand pressure exceeding 62,000 to 65,000 PSI. We don't come anywhere near that with BP.

In particular; "not certifiable for any gun barrel application, black powder or smokeless." Who or what determines cert specs for black powder? It would seem that if there were any no barrel maker would dare to fail following them. Further, those specifications would probably be commonly known in the ML community and barrel makers would proudly assert the use of "certified" steel.

As to the documentation of the burst that you described I'm not overwhelmed. It fails to account for human nature and the tendency to deflect responsibility even when there are no consequences. After years of taking auto accident reports from all parties involved in the event I can tell you that it's extraordinarily rare to have multiple parties agree on the most pertinent facts. It's internalized cognitive dissonance at work. These are mostly honest people protecting their own self image and beliefs about themselves.

Here's a suggestion for you. And not offered in anything other than good faith; why don't you acquire a 12L14 barrel and do some serious experiments such as repeated discharges of short started balls or repeated discharges of serious overloads. It would be interesting to see the results.

Concerning steel properties, you can have an alloy with a relatively high psi rating and still have a low shock load resistance. These properties and parameters are established in the laboratory using various test equipment designed to measure the character of an alloy like hardness, elasticity, elongation, compression , ductile strength etc. The difference between psi (static load ) and shock load is the speed and amplitude the force is applied.
One cannot accurately determine these parameters effected by time, temperature changes and occurrence frequency by a simple blow up test.

 

[bpd303]

knife I made.

That is a very nice Gaucho style knife, I love it and have made several. Wish I still had pictures of mine.