poor shot pattern

[mbritt]

I just bought a new Early American Fowler. 20 guage. My intention is to use it mostly for hunting small game. This is my first time using shot in a muzzleloader and I'm having problems. I have tried various combinations of powder; 55 grains of fff to 65 grains of fff, and 1 oz and 1 1/8 oz of shot. I tried #5 and #6 shot. There are big holes in the pattern, especially in the center. Also the pattern is spread so wide and thin when shooting beyond 10 yards that killing a squirrel beyond that range would be luck. Acutually I did go squirrel hunting with this gun the past two days and I did kill two squirrels at close range.

Another problem I'm haveing with it is that it shoots low. REAL low. I'm thinking of sawing off the front sight. Also it kicks me in the cheek and I now have a bruised cheek bone. Over the years I have shot many rifles and shotguns, and never had a bruised cheek.

I would appreciate any suggestions of how to get this gun to shoot better.

Tomorrow I'm going hunting with my trusty modern single shot 20 guage. It shoots straight and even though it kicks twice as hard, it never bruises my cheek.

 

[jim gray]

You may be able to solve the point of aim and bruised cheek by positioning your cheek a little higher on the gun.

As for the holes in the pattern, how are you loading the gun. Is it powder, over-owder card, cushioned wad, shot and then over-shot card? Is it something different entirely, I had the same problem patterning a SxS 12 guage. I just varied the amount of shot upward to fix it. A friend of mine had good results with a mix of 7 1/2s and 4s. Experiment with it and your results may improve.

 

[ffffg]

smaking the cheek can be from several problems.. most likely its a comb that rises as it goes forward.. thus when the gun recoils back it smacks the cheek.. to fix this tape some tappered tape and card board weges to the corrected hight to make it hit on and be level enough to not bite.. pitch which is butt angle and cast off, and cast on is the angle of stock to barrel on the other axis (not the top of the stock but the side).. to increase pattern quality or tighten group, use larger shot, harder shot, less powder, more shot, .. make sure your not getting fouling that will degrade patterns. put a large glob of thompson center yellow lube in the tube (bore butter)in between the over powder card and the fiber wad. pack the powder not the shot.. packing the shot will jamb the load, increase starting pressure and deform the shot.. also try 2fg and see if that helps.. keep working at it, keep asking questions and youll get it. i like knickel plated shot from balistic products, as its harder and doesnt lead the bore.. bore fouling and bore leading will degregrate patterns..shoot at an old style steel cambels soup can to see if your getting enought velocity for a kill. the pellet (6 shot) should pennetrate one side of the can.. keep patterning, its the key to getting proper loads.. after you get a good pattern check it on the can for pennetration. this coupled with the pattern will give you your hunting max distance.. if pattern is poor, but your getting good pennetration on the can at that yardage try a little smaller shot.. then see if the pattern is better filled in, then ssee if your gettting enough pennetration.. the first shot will not act like the 5th nor the 10 etc if load is not at its best... as the weather gets cold it slows down velocity and opens patterns cut to dense air,so then shot cups will be in order. but first things first.. good luck dave..

 

[arcticap]

I would stick with the #6's since that is a classic squirrel/rabbit shot size. The fact that you were successful is an indication that you are on the right track since it only takes 1 well placed ball of shot in the head or chest to kill a squirrel.
It's possible that more shot and powder will help fill in your pattern. However, there may also be more recoil and cheek truama to deal with. Can you move your head and cheek further back on the stock and keep your cheek more on the side of the stock rather than on the comb (top) of the stock itself? I find that on some shotguns, if I creep up the stock too far forward when I "aim" I'll shoot low. Could that be happening with you? If a stock was too short, (which I'm not saying your's is), it could make it more difficult to keep your head back rather than forward. A slip on rubber butt pad might add more length to your stock, helping to move your head back and allow you to place your cheek more comfortably on the side of the stock all at the same time. Whether your stock is the right size for you or not, you might have to practice some new shooting form in order to see if it could work for you. :hatsoff:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Problem #1 . I'd suggest having some jug ckoke put in your barrel. That will straighten your shot patterns right out. Or, You might try a load of 70grs 2ff, hard card, 1/4" felt wad 1 1/8oz shot and an over shot card. Re reading your post, you didn't mention if you were using any wads....you need wads to get a good pattern.
Problem #2. The only way to fix a low shooting gun is to bend the barrel up, or put on a rear sight. A rear sight kind of ruins any wing shooting....or at least it does for me....I'd bend the barrel.
Problem #3. Your stock was built with too little drop. You have no easy solution other than to modifiy your buttstock with a rasp untill it quits hitting your cheek bone. You may have to take off quite a bit.
Where did you get your gun?

 

[robinghewitt]

Sounds about right :thumbsup:

I have a long barrelled 20 gauge and it likes an ounce over 40 grains of sporting grade powder. Comes out plenty quick enough to erase a squirrel and is gentle on the shoulder.

Suggest you reduce the powder until the group closes up and then check penetration.

best regards

Squire Robin

 

[Dave K]

Everyone has an opinion that works for them. When I get a hole in a pattern like that I first look to the cushion I am using. It is probably too thick and blowing through the shot column. (JMHO) If thinning the fiber cushion down to around 1/4" doesn't improve your pattern, try the changing of powder. Start with your 55gr. and see how it patterns. If all is good, then up the powder in 5gr. increments until the pattern gets a hole in it again. Then just back off the powder to where it patterned good. When you are happy with your pattern, just shoot this at a good coffee can. If the shot goes through the can ok, you have all the power you need to break bones. Personally, I get better patterns with 2F powder. In the 20ga.SxS flint I shoot, I use 2 1/2Dr.(about 70gr.) of 2F and 7/8oz. of shot, 1/4" thick fiber cushion lubed with olive oil. Patterns great. :results:

 

[chuck-ia]

where abouts in iowa ya from? I'm in emmetsburg. a smoothbore is a whole new ball game, (at least for me) there are so many different wad configurations to work out. I am still working on that perfect pattern. if I just had more time. I do tend to listen to dave k and others advice. good information on this board. flinch

 

[roundball]

This is an outstanding site for smoothbore information...practical real world ball and/or shot load suggestions that work

 

[mbritt]

Thanks for all the suggestions posted in this forum. Yes I have been using an over powder wad and a thick cushion wad and an overshot wad. Maybe the cushion wad is blowing a hole in the pattern, a couple of times I saw a large 62 cal hole in the cardboard boxes that I have been shooting at to test the pattern. I am going to buy some ff powder and see if that helps. And I will have to do a lot more experimenting with the loads until I find something that works.

Bend the barrel? that's funny. And I'm not going to carve up the stock. I don't consider this to be a badly made gun. But maybe it just doesn't fit me. From now on when I shoot it I will pay a lot more attention to where I positon my cheek and try to find what works best. This is a pretty gun and the workmanship is very good. It was made by Brian Turner.

This morning I went hunting with my modern 20 gauge and killed 6 squirrels with 6 shots. Three of them at 30 yards. I shot at a seventh squirrel and missed. A lot of fun.

flinch, I live in Council Bluffs. I hunt in the state forest (it's not really a forest) about 45 miles north of here. I will be using my fowler to hunt deer when the season opens in a few weeks, so also need to practice with round balls.

I'm going on vacation and so it will be a couple weeks before I can do any more testing of my new gun.

 

[chuck-ia]

a couple weeks before you can shoot again???????????????? I would be having serious withdrall symptions by then. flinch

 

[Mike Brooks]

Your cushion wad is definately blowing your pattern. try cutting it in half .
I wasn't being funny when I told you to bend your barrel. I build guns for a living and this is just common practice if you want to hit what you're aiming at on a regular basis. There is no way you can compensate by looking over the barrel to change point of impact. It can be done under controled conditions at the range, but in a wing shooting/hunting situation you won't get your sight picture fast enough.
Pretty or not, it isn't much fun to shoot a gun that hurts you every time you pull the trigger. :cry: I'd mention all of this to the builder , I'm sure he'll fix your problems right up.

 

[Dave K]

Yes, Mike is right on cushions, stock and barrel. On cushions, you really only need enough cushion to carry lube to the barrel. I have even had them only about 1/8" thick and have done well with them. Like I said, I use olive oil now. I soak them in it, then allow them to drain for a couple days before putting them in a zip lock bag in my hunting kit. I have shot ALL DAY with a cushion like this and NO problems. As a matter of fact, today I virtually hunted and shot doves all day.

 

[ffffg]

<Problem #2. The only way to fix a low shooting gun is to bend the barrel up, or put on a rear sight. A rear sight kind of ruins any wing shooting....or at least it does for me....I'd bend the barrel.>
there is another way.. build up the stock comb, raise it with cardboard, tape, wood, whatever you can use to get it up to pattern on center. i then cover it with a black sock shell holder or camo tape if for hunting.. not a pretty sight when it starts to wear... champion trap shooters do it all the time. ive won 4 state black powder shotgun championships myself, all with built up comb to center impact.. many ducks and geese have also met their waterloo with this setup for me.. but it can be a pricy fix to put in a professional adjustable comb on a trap gun.. then if you change loads its adjustable to the new load... this would definitly not be period correct. barrel bending would be period correct.. you can change the tape and cardboard comb rise easily also.. when you shoot ball the raise will usually be too high if your entire stock comb is high or the barrel is bent for shot.. drop the comb height rise off just behind the natural cheek placement when jump shooting for instance, and then you can put your cheek behind that point for ball.. This will hit the cheek if your not holding on the gun firmly, or your using a heavy ball load. what counts is what works for you.. a a narow rear sight can act as a strange looking rib, but youl be well over that with the comb raise for shot.. then put your cheek behind the comb rise and look thru the sight for ball..it suits me fine. if your going to use the smoothbore for shot only, a bent barrel would work great and look better... ..good luck dave..

 

[Dave K]

fffg, Cabela's makes a real nice lace on leather comb that you tie on the stock. It is something like $25. I did buy one and on one of my old SxS hull guns(actually several guns) with a severe drop in the stock it is just the ticket. Plus it comes off easily and without damage. They are made in I think 3 different comb heights.

 

[Leatherbark]

Dont aim down the barrel when shooting the fowler.......Raise the barrel and sight over it and find the right cheek weld........Remember the sight picture..........If its shooting shot low ,it will probably shoot ball low also if you are aiming down the barrel flat.......So tilt the barrel up,remember the sight picture....Dont pattern it from the bench and it wont kick your cheek as bad............Plus when you sight over the barrel this will help in the cheek battering dept...................Bob

 

[Bill41]

Have you tried polishing the bore of your fowler. I built a 12ga new england fowler and the patterns were spread when I first shot it. I went through all of the various load/wad combinations with limited results. Did some research and learned that if you polish the bore it will tighten the patterns up. I polished mine with green scotch brite, a length of all thread wrapped in duct tape, and wd40. The scotch brite is secured to the all thread with two nuts. The duct tape is wrapped on the allthread to protect the barrel. Soak the scotch brite in WD40 and srpay some down the barrel. Stick the other end of the allthread in a drill and start polishing. Keep the scotch brite moving up and down the barrel. I inspected my results after about every 6 passes, changing scotch brite each time, and rinsing the barrel with WD40. How long does it take?? Can't say for your barrel, but I stopped after about 30 to 45 minutes. UNfortunatly I have not tried my shot patterns since polishing. Time just hasn't allowed it yet.

 

[riarcher]

"Learning curves" can be fun can't they?
In my Bess I found the cushion wads did holes for me too. When I eliminated the lube in the wads I thought for sure it would help,,, but it didn't (Ugh!). Cut them in half,,, quartered,,, finally cut them out.
Now I just use 2 over powder cards with some lube between them and the problem is gone.
I really don't understand how or why,,, it just works.
TOW suggest 68 gr. and 7/8 oz. shot for the 20 ga.
Dixie suggest 2 drams/3/4 oz (light), 2 3/8 dr./1 oz. (med.) and 2 3/4 dr./1 oz (heavy). 27 1/2 gr. = 1 dram
Also tried a paper shot cup with the top closed as well as the bottom. Pattern looked like it was shot with a slug! Never opened.
Seems a good shot group is more difficult (finicky?) than a ball at times.

 

[roundball]

Also tried a paper shot cup with the top closed as well as the bottom. Pattern looked like it was shot with a slug! Never opened.

I had that same result too in my .62cal smoothbore.

Discovered if I cut the height of the paper shot cups so they were flush with the height of the amount of shot that I poured into them, they worked great...left the shot cup tops open just like an open topped plastic shotgun wad is inside a shotgun shell...then I seat a .030" over shot card down on top...gives me outstanding reliable patterns.

 

I am new to the forum. I have a couple .69 smoothbore. Am I the only one here that throws two round wads of newspaper over the shot and one over the powder? I still have cushions and cards I purchased 20+ yrs ago. I live in Fl. I don't shoot over dry tinder. Over the years I have tested the pattern on old cardboard and such using ff out to about 30 yds with 1.25 of #7. It is acceptable. I don't get any comments from very old men that sometimes accompany me. They brag about the possums and coons they have cooked in the Dutch oven,ect ... I know they would have offererd sugestions if they saw anything different than they would have used. They taught me. Most were the grandsons of civil war veterans of Lee's army. They hunted deer with 9 or 12 buck and everything else with 6 to 8 shot. They say they could not afford .22 for deer! Sometimes I have had to clean fine weapons and give them to thier children. You know how that felt. Most were from Virginia, Alexandria through the Shennendoah valley. Was I tought wrong or did the muskets change? One more edit. They are pretty much gone now. I am proud to have known them. They took care of my Dad when he was Ill. Eighty and Ninety year olds taking care of the Sixty yr. old kid. Only in Indian Lake Estates Florida! Thanks guys, I needed to jump and vent. Pride for old Guys. :grey: