Powder Charges?

[N.Y. Yankee]

Is it fair to say that most traditional muzzleloaders are not meant to use powder charges of more than about 80-90 grains or so? I have routinely used 100 gr of 2F in my Hawken type rifles and getting decent accuracy for hunting, even a few X's once in a while and My T/C Renegade took 120 gr loads routinely with heavy bullets for hunting and did well with that too. I realize each gun has its own best load but just wondered about the makeup of the guns themselves. Powder conservation being considered, how common are larger charges? I don't see them mentioned much if any.

 

[N.Y. Yankee]

Maybe I should have used " intended use" in there instead.

 

[tom_in_vt]

The thing about black powder is that you get minimal returns once you hit a certain point. This varies by gun/barrel length/etc. the tricky part is finding what your gun likes and staying around that amount.

example: if 80 grains gets you 1500 fps and 90 gets your 1580, is it worth doing?

 

[hanshi]

For most guns and shooters as well as hunters a modest to medium powder charge works well. Too heavy a charge just wastes powder.

 

[1950DAVE]

Caliber? Bullet or ball?

 

[mmb617]

Not wanting to waste powder I shoot 50 gr charges in my .50 caliber rifle with patched round balls. I did a little chrono work and averaged 1300+ fps with that load. Going up to 60 gr charge added about 100 fps. I'm not hunting with this gun so I don't think that additional speed is worth the extra powder.

 

[Surrywoodman]

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of a chronograph data chart that shows velocities for various powder loads with PRBs in various caliber rifles? I don't have a chrono and I know that the data could vary from rifle to rifle but it would be good info I think

 

[hanshi]

There's little reason not to consider looking into getting a chronograph, they are very inexpensive and reliable. I've owned one for over 25 years but seldom run a round ball over the screens. If I have a particularly accurate load I use that performs really well there's a good chance it will get chronographed at some point. In such cases I'm interested in the ballistic uniformity - sd, es, etc. Actual velocity is secondary but still nice to know. Velocity charts are off just as or more often than on. Velocities aren't necessarily linear and often manifest in jumps and starts.

A rifle I once tested that exhibited splendid accuracy with three particular loads is a good example. As the powder charges were increased by five grains at a time and chronographed velocity moved up predictably (more or less) each time, there was a major surprise in store at the middle charges. One particular charge gave the normal increase and speed the charts predicted. I upped the charge just 5 grains and got a whopping 240 fps increase in velocity! Not only that but the single digit sd and the almost nonexistent extreme spread indicated just why that load (my favorite) was so accurate. Further testing with 5 grain increases once again gave the earlier boring uniformity I'd found initially. Also, sometimes when a charge is increased the velocity is LESS than the previous charge. At close range, say under 50 yards, a load, any load, might shoot just fine regardless of whether it has extreme spreads from shot to shot or not. But by the time the distance to the target is well beyond that mark there IS an accuracy issue. Vertical stringing from the shot to shot velocity spreads is often the first sign of nonuniformity.

 

[Surrywoodman]

I almost got a chrono years ago and just never did and you're right, they aren't cost prohibitive at all. Funny, I was talking to the wife yesterday about the subject before I read this because the in-laws are always wanting to get me something hunting or shooting related for Christmas and I said to suggest to them a chronograph if they were stumped. One way or the other, I think one is in my future

 

[tenngun]

Chrono won’t do you much good unless the deer is at the muzzle. Balls lose velocity quickly. A .50 at 2200fps slows to 1100 fps at a hundred yards. MV of 1100 fps slows to 800 fps at 100 yards, you don’t gain much

 

[Surrywoodman]

100yds is not going to happen where I hunt in the Eastern woods, at best 50 (especially nowadays with my aging eyeballs), and I have made that shot (or under) a number of times, though not always with a PRB. The chrono data for me is really about info more than anything else, kind of like what Hanshi does, to aid in load development, and I would also use if for the unmentionable things as well

 

[TrapperDude]

Chrono won’t do you much good unless the deer is at the muzzle. Balls lose velocity quickly. A .50 at 2200fps slows to 1100 fps at a hundred yards. MV of 1100 fps slows to 800 fps at 100 yards, you don’t gain much

While the chrono won't give you results at 100 yards, the muzzle velocity does give an indication of the actual change in performance of a load.

With that being said, the numbers you've quoted do raise an interesting point about actual energy transferred to a target at 100 yards. Basically, there's a 300 FPS difference between velocity at 100 yards between loads with either a 2200 FPS or 1100 FPS at the muzzle. At 100 yards, the farthest most people will shoot, the energy difference may or may not be significant on most game they might take, given that velocity difference.

That would seem to favor an approach focusing more on optimizing precision and minimizing bullet drop to an extent. So, calculating a load that gets one into that 1100 FPS muzzle velocity, using a chrono to start, might be the smart way to use it. After that, any further chrono readings would be to ensure consistency of performance from the powder and other components you are using.

In the end, there's no reason to burn extra powder and put extra wear on the weapon.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Is it fair to say that most traditional muzzleloaders are not meant to use powder charges of more than about 80-90 grains or so? I have routinely used 100 gr of 2F in my Hawken type rifles and getting decent accuracy for hunting, even a few X's once in a while and My T/C Renegade took 120 gr loads routinely with heavy bullets for hunting and did well with that too. I realize each gun has its own best load but just wondered about the makeup of the guns themselves. Powder conservation being considered, how common are larger charges? I don't see them mentioned much if any.

So a lot of the folks use patched round ball. They get good performance and very good accuracy. Some folks like to use conicals, but truth be told, they were invented for a fast combat reload vs. humans, not for hunting. One famous dangerous game hunter in Asia, who hunted tigers and rhinos and elephants in India, did not like the conical bullets of his day. (See The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles by Forsyth 1867) Conicals will, in some cases allow the use of a poorly cared for rifle bore, when a patched round ball simply will not work.

So 2Fg with a flat based conical bullet may be working well for you because that's a) equal to a 90 grain load IF you switched to 3Fg, and b) that heavy load may be helping your bullet to obturate (grab the rifling). OR you might be losing a bit of the gas before the bullet fully obturates and seals against the inside walls of your barrel. I wonder at what design of bullet you are using?

As to loads Yes there is data. Here is the GOEX chart. The only flaw is that they don't tell you the length of the barrel that they used, and the weight of the projectiles are wrong...too heavy.
GOEX Round Ball.......GOEX Conical....

Here are some charts for the Round Ball. The round ball has a crap-tastic ballistic coefficient, so it sheds velocity faster than a conical bullet, especially when that bullet is smaller caliber. So a .45 caliber 200 grain conical bullet launched at the same speed as a 175 grain .490 round ball will be faster at 100 yards, even though it's 25 grains heavier.

ROUND BALL:

I normally use 70 grains of 3Fg with my .530 round ball.. My state requires a minimum of 60 grains for deer hunting, regardless of the projectile size. So, in case I ran into a DNR officer who wanted to check my load..., I wanted 10 grains more than the minimum. When I tested this it shot extremely well from the bench out to 100 yards.

My load is under supersonic at 100 yards, but I can say that with a broadside hit, the ball will go through a doe or a buck at that speed.

I used to joke with the folks at the range who were shooting 120 grains of powder (because their adjustable measure would not go higher) and a .50 cal, 320 grain REAL bullet, IF they thought a 405 grain bullet doing a mere 1330 fps was not good enough for deer, since it was what was in the .45-70 cartridge used by some buffalo hunters in the past.. Then I'd ask them why they thought their bullet, being only 85 grains lighter, needed a 120 grain charge. Most of them thought that black powder was simply anemic, and some just liked the boom and the recoil.

So the shooter needs to do what works. IF your combination gives you good accuracy, and you're not worried or bothered by the recoil. That's fine. Don't fix things if they are not broken. If you'd like to try a patched round ball, I encourage you to give it a chance.

LD

 

[Sidney Smith]

I load 80 grains of 2fg in my .54 caliber guns. This load is accurate and kills deer. Why should I load more?

To those clowns who say you can't kill a deer with less than 100 grains, I say they're idiots who don't know their arse from a hole in the ground.

 

[Crow-Feather]

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of a chronograph data chart that shows velocities for various powder loads with PRBs in various caliber rifles? I don't have a chrono and I know that the data could vary from rifle to rifle but it would be good info I think

Lyman Black Powder and Loading Manual.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I have a target rifle for Rondy"s and a traditional hunting rifle that is better designed for hunting in the woods. Target shoots a 35 gr, 3f grain target load and the other shoots a PRB behind 80 grains of 2f. I shoot the target rifle a lot more than the hunting rifle.

 

[William Lincoln]

I load 70 grs of 3F no matter the projectile in my Hawken style carbine. If I get
some fancy slugs at a sale I will load a little heavier. But I do good with RB.
for whitetails. The key is hitting the deer in an effective spot-- where you don't
have to follow a blood trail for ever. The big focus on heavier loads would
come in for Elk and Moose if you were lucky to be able to hunt those. Being an
older guy I focus on the hunt itself, starting with scouting. A Hawkin with moderate
60-80 gr loads with PRB will kill the deer- period -out to at least 125 yds. I recommend
practicing at 75 yards. With red meat costing a fortune-- it's back to the hunt guys.
In my areas the deer processing is offered by guys charging 50-75 bucks--should you
not want to do it yourself. We are Nationally over run with deer. Good luck.

 

[William Lincoln]

PS-If you live in Florida and are over 65, your hunting and fishing license is free.

 

[Historian]

Use a chronograph for knowing your MV; then use a simple ballistic program calculator to plug in your MV along with the projectile mass to find out what your projectile(s) are doing down range. Yes it is a big help. Not hard to do. Shoot what works for you. I use various powder loads as required by the game I am hunting. Anywhere from 50grs to 120 grs in my smooth bores. It all depends on what I am hunting. Waterfowl to deer and hog each require different loads and that includes powder charges.

 

[hanshi]

For all my shooting/hunting I use nothing but patched round ball; and it NEVER fails me. Accuracy is what I load for but not "match" accuracy; I no longer shoot that well so must make adjustments. I guess it would be more like "field accuracy" and the only kind I'm now capable of. Generally I load 70 grains of 3F in the .45 and .50 but with two .45s it's more like 60-65 grains and those two no longer hunt. The favorite load for the .54 is 60 grns of 3F which gives around 1300 fps and is all I need (super accurate too).

The point, here, is that it doesn't take heavy loads to shoot completely through a deer at 100 yards; that's what a ball will easily accomplish. Conicals? If I hunted with them I'd still use the same loads.