Powder flask or hand grenade?

[shortbow]

Heya, there are some English powder flasks on TOW, that have what is referred to as a "flameproof" head that you can set to throw a measured charge. I have always loaded from a horn and separate measure for obvious reasons, but am wondering if these flasks would indeed be safe if you were loading directly into the muzzle and got a cook-off?
Thanks

 

[paulvallandigham]

No, they are not safe to load directly into the muzzle of the gun. That is why the Commandments of Black Powder safety indicate that your practice of pouring powder from you horn or flask into a separate powder measure is the preferred way to safely load a gun. The problem with all measures attached to the powder source, is that powder residue sticks to and builds up on the gate that separates the measure from the powder source. Unless that gate is cleaned regularly ( requiring that the measure be taken apart!) you not only have a source for ignition, but the residue builds up and keeps the gate from sealing properly. That creates a direct line patch for fire to enter that powder horn or flask. That is when your flask becomes that Hand Grenade!

Its quite one thing to have a cook off of 60-120 grains of powder because you poured the powder down your barrel onto a hot ember. Its quite another if that resulting flame comes up out of the barrel and into your powder horn or flask. In the first case, you burn some fingers, or part of your hand, and soil your underwear. In the second you lose your head and hands and don't have time to soil your underwear. :hatsoff:

 

[smokehouseman]

You lose your head and hands, the way I've seen it, you sometimes still soil your underwear! Find a safer way to load a charge.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Send one to that Greg Martin guy that does the History Channel shows. He should be happy to test one, as he loads down the barrel with a powder horn on his TV shows.

 

[bart_anastasi]

If some one is doing a TV show they are probably also loading and shooting very slow. The gun is probably cold dead cold and could probably not have been fired for quite a while. For all we know the gun or flask might not habve any powder in it at all.

I have never seen it but I bet it looks cool on TV.

 

[smallmouth]

Common sense must prevail. On the other hand you need to know whose face it is next to your muzzle. Back in my younger years I took many short cuts, fortunately, I never had to pay too high a price for them. Horn, measurer, muzzle, its easy, plus the whole horn does not go up. Things happen, why fool with proven methods?

sirJohn

 

[Dphar]

Heya, there are some English powder flasks on TOW, that have what is referred to as a "flameproof" head that you can set to throw a measured charge. I have always loaded from a horn and separate measure for obvious reasons, but am wondering if these flasks would indeed be safe if you were loading directly into the muzzle and got a cook-off?
Thanks

The TOW "flameproof" are pretty good flasks and are not made like the typical cheap repro flask. Problem is they may not throw the specific charge you need. If they threw 5 drams I would likely have one.
Still you should not dump right from the flask to muzzle.
The thin sheet metal flasks do not hold together well enough to really get a good explosion from BP. However, some of the cheap cylindrical types are make of thicker tubing and do a better job of making a "boom" with fragments. I had a priming version of one of these. Still have it in fact. But its empty, laying on a self in the shop. Weaker is better with powder containers.

Dan

 

[rebel727]

It would be neat if it really works. It's a PITA to go from flask to measure to barrel(for me anyway)but while I'll do some stuff most people think is outrageously dumb I'm not going to be the guinea pig on that one.

 

[sundog]

One gun club I belong to has ruled that those brass cylinder El Cheapo powder flasks are no longer allowed on the gun range. Only horns or light sheet metal flasks are permitted. Safety first. The inexpensive cylinder type flasks with their screw on ends and thick walls can pose a real hazzard not only to the shooter but to others near by as well.

 

[roundball]

"...The inexpensive cylinder type flasks with their screw on ends and thick walls can pose a real hazzard not only to the shooter but to others near by as well..."

In essence a pipe bomb...

 

[shortbow]

Ok, all good advice that makes sense to me. Just hadda rest my mind on this, as they are quality repros of old flasks by the original company, and were obviously designed to operate flask to muzzle back in the day.

 

[bwhoffman]

One gun club I belong to has ruled that those brass cylinder El Cheapo powder flasks are no longer allowed on the gun range. Only horns or light sheet metal flasks are permitted. Safety first. The inexpensive cylinder type flasks with their screw on ends and thick walls can pose a real hazzard not only to the shooter but to others near by as well.

Our club, be it monthly shoots or Rondy's....
No loading from the horn...PERIOD.
cap or prime on the line only...PERIOD.

horn includes flask.

 

[omarick1948]

Loading DIRECTLY from a flask, powder horn or can, is the best method to prove "Murphy's Law"! :nono: :nono: :nono:

ALWAYS USE A SEPERATE MEASURE......ALWAYS!

 

[whiskey]

I agree that loading directly from a horn or flask is taking a great risk, but I have always wondered how much a risk it really is.
I have been shooting muzzleloaders for over thirty years, been to many shoots and rendezvous. In all those thousands of loadings I have done or witnessed, I have never seen or heard of a measured charge going off when poured down the barrel. Have any of you?

 

[shortbow]

Good question. I've never seen nor heard of it either. Would be very interesting to see what others come up with.

 

Why do you say, "it is in essence a pipe bomb"? Is there the chance of an ember in the bore that may cause a cook off thereby igniting the powder in the flask?

 

[oldwolf]

Does this discussion also pertain to loading Cap & Ball revolvers with a flask such as this? If so, this would definitely slow my loading down.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The problem with the mounted measures on horns, or flasks, like the one shown is the crud that builds up and keeps the " gate" from closing completely after a number of shots are poured. Its particularly a bad problem in damp weather, or in high humidity. The powder residue gets on both sides of the gate, which is usually a thin piece of plated metal, and it also gets on the tubing and areas against which the gate moves and rests. Remember that the flask is held upside down to pour powder into the drop tube, and then the gate is allowed to close while all that powder is weighing down on top of it.

I have trouble with the gate on my Irish shot measure closing properly when I am measuring out shot, because of the weight of the shot behind it. I rarely carry a pound of shot in the snake in the field, so the problems with the two containers are similar. In my Irish measure, the lead is scraped off by the gate as it closes to cut off the shot behind it, and bits of lead load the edge of the gate, and surrounding structures, and eventually keep the shot from closing. I then get shot dripping out onto the ground, while I pour the scoop of shot into my barrel, and return the scoop to the snake. With powder flasks, the residue holds the gate open allowing any flame from a cook off in the barrel to travel right up into the main container of powder and set that off.

Such incidents have been reported over the past 30 years, with the lastest one a few years ago. My club rules will not allow these flasks to be used on the firing line to load charges in the barrel. A powder measure separate from the can, flask, or horn, MUST BE USED by the shooter, for the safety of all shooters. The powder measure can be fixed, home made, commercial, adjustable, with or without a funnel or cut off plate, but it has to be separate from the powder reservoir.

Be safe. Always. :thumbsup:

 

The problem with the mounted measures on horns, or flasks, like the one shown is the crud that builds up and keeps the " gate" from closing completely after a number of shots are poured. Its particularly a bad problem in damp weather, or in high humidity. The powder residue gets on both sides of the gate, which is usually a thin piece of plated metal, and it also gets on the tubing and areas against which the gate moves and rests. Remember that the flask is held upside down to pour powder into the drop tube, and then the gate is allowed to close while all that powder is weighing down on top of it.

I have trouble with the gate on my Irish shot measure closing properly when I am measuring out shot, because of the weight of the shot behind it. I rarely carry a pound of shot in the snake in the field, so the problems with the two containers are similar. In my Irish measure, the lead is scraped off by the gate as it closes to cut off the shot behind it, and bits of lead load the edge of the gate, and surrounding structures, and eventually keep the shot from closing. I then get shot dripping out onto the ground, while I pour the scoop of shot into my barrel, and return the scoop to the snake. With powder flasks, the residue holds the gate open allowing any flame from a cook off in the barrel to travel right up into the main container of powder and set that off.

Such incidents have been reported over the past 30 years, with the lastest one a few years ago. My club rules will not allow these flasks to be used on the firing line to load charges in the barrel. A powder measure separate from the can, flask, or horn, MUST BE USED by the shooter, for the safety of all shooters. The powder measure can be fixed, home made, commercial, adjustable, with or without a funnel or cut off plate, but it has to be separate from the powder reservoir.

Be safe. Always. :thumbsup:

I agree totally with your thesis Paul. My question was specifically asks of Roundball, but I thank you for clearing this up for new guys who may not have heard of the dangers of a cook off in a barrel after shooting it. It is my personal practice to swab in between each shot or make sure there is no live embers left in the bore by other means. Some on this forum have bragged about firing 50 rounds without swabbing or securing the barrel from a cook off yet will warn others about the dangers of loading from a flask or horn. My question was to try to understand the logic of this.

There is a dangerous ember present when loading from a horn/flask but there is not an ember in the bore when loading without swabbing between shots? Sorry, I don't get it.

If there is the danger of an ember in the barrel then loading w/o swabbing is asking for trouble and/or loading from a horn or flask is likewise asking for trouble. That makes perfect sense to me.

ShortBow,...to answer your question. Do everything you can to prevent powder burns or worse by swabbing between shots and continue to load from a powder measure that is separate from your horn.
:thumbsup: No danger of cook offs that way.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree. For years, I have been using a slightly dampened cleaning patch, with spit wiped off my tongue, to douse any embers and help remove crud and residue from my barrel. Recently, I have been shown that using a lubed cleaning patch with Bore Butter is just as good at extinquishing embers, and allows the barrel to get another coat of lube on it before loading the next PRB. I am trying to change my long standing habit to give this technique of cleaning and loading a try. Old habits are very hard to break, but the taste of bore butter is getting it done! Yuck!! :nono: :blah: :rotf:

I do recomment to all shooters that they use some kind of dampened patch to run down the barrel to put out ALL embers. This is a sport. We are not shooting these guns to join the militia, or survive against enemy attacks. NOT wiping the bore between shots to save a bit of time loading is Just NOT worth the risk of having a cook-off in your barrel!

We do seem to have some kind of bragging rights contest on how many times you can fire your gun without cleaning it, or putting out the embers on this forum. I do not participate for obvious reasons.