Powder & Shot Load ratios out of smoothbore muzzleloaders...

[roundball]

Wondering about pros & cons of shot charge sizes in smoothbore muzzleloaders...and to kick it off I'll use a .20ga as an example, although I believe the principles generally apply to smoothbore muzzleloaders across the board.

I am of the belief that typical shot charge sizes often suggested for muzzleloaders are the result of comparing them to the modern shotgun shells we're familiar with.
ie: A typical 2+3/4" .20ga shell is normally loaded with 7/8oz volume of shot.
I am also of the belief that the modern 7/8oz charge is the result of the physical limitations of the shell's hull capacity, and not a result of factors like pressure as shotguns operate at comparatively modest pressures.
Conversely, I believe that loading a smoothbore muzzleloader in its bare bore, without the limiting confines of a physical hull, using blackpowder with even significantly lower pressures, is a completely different environment and as a result, comparisons to modern shot shells is really not a logical guideline.

A couple of loads that I've personally tested/settled on have powder & lead ratios greater than 1:1...similar to the old saying in the blackpowder world of "load powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead".
One in particular, a publicized .62cal turkey load is an 80grn measure of Goex 3F and a 120grn measure of hard #6s...a 1:1.5 ratio...I adopted it and it's worked fine for me on a few turkeys. In fact, when used as a "shot rifle" at small size stationary targets like that (turkey heads, squirrels) the notion of a longer shot string only seems to help.
Conversely, the few times I've shot some clay targets with smaller size shot, the larger ratios have not been needed due to the higher pellet count in #8s or #9s.

Love fiddling with smooth bores...going to start shot load development this weekend with the 42" Rice .54cal smoothie..any "pet loads" and performance results for various game would be good to hear...

 

[Flintlock58]

I dont have any hard data to support it, but I have had similar experience shooting geese and turkeys. More shot works well for me in a 20ga and especially in an 11 ga jug choked gun.

 

[majg1234]

yep i'm wondering too RB,My turkey load for my 62 cal would make a modern 12ga blush :grin: The ole toms didn't cooperate this year but the targets were "wore out" with a large load of #5's and FFg

 

[CoyoteJoe]

There are charts of "standard loads" for muzzleloading guns dating well back into the flintlock era. They are quite close to the "standard loads" found in modern shotshells.
I really doubt that gunmakers of the early breechloading era just chose an arbitrary shell length and then loaded what fit. Rather, I believe they designed the shell to hold the loads that had already become established as standard for muzzleloaders. After all, if one designs a gun and the ammunition to fit it one could make the shell as long as they like.
And those early shotshells, particularly the brass variety, could hold considerably more powder and shot than that with which they were commonly loaded. The thick wads which we now call "cushion wads" were also called "filler wads" since their purpose was to fill the empty space inside a shotshell so that all loads could use the same shell length and crimp.

 

[Dave K]

As I recall, a 7/8oz load in a 20ga. is a "square" load. This means that the payload is as tall in the barrel as it is round. The same thing in a 1oz. load in a 16ga. and a 1 1/8oz. load in a 12ga. I have also found in old writings that the loads from the flint period were pretty close to the loads today in a hull. As a matter of fact I use the box information as a starting guide line. If it has worked for ALL these years, it can't be too far off. After all they also use dram equiv. in the modern loads, so I test with the actual dram equiv. as a starting point as well.

 

[roundball]

I haven't run across the kind of charts you're referring to...pretty sure you've posted your agreement in the past with higher shot to powder ratios...do you happen to have a pet hunting load for the .54cal smoothbore?

 

[twobarrel]

My favorite load for my .54 is 60 grs.0f 3f goex and 80grs. of #6's with wasp nest op and os. I've had good success on small game and turkeys with this load.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Bill,

Last Sunday one of the three clubs I shoot black powder at held a day-long skills event. One of the several skills was clay bird shooting. I decided to try my customized load of 85 grains of 3Fg Goex, a .125 OP card, a 10 ga. pre-lubed wonder-wad, 1 1/8 oz. of #7.5 combined with 7/8 oz. of #6's (my pheasant load). So that's 2 oz. of shot in the cylinder-bore 10 ga. Broke 8 outta 10, most of em' were "dusted". The 2 I missed were my fault getting used to the lead :redface: , NOT any fault with the load, gun, etc.

I started using that gun for clays with 1 5/8 oz. loads of #7.5's and decided to try some #6's to "extend" my range due to the 6's hitting a little harder at longer than 25 yard ranges. Raising the amount of shot seems to have filled-in the density of my pattern.....

Tomorrow I'm bringing my 10 ga. to a small get-together at a range with a patterning board. I'll report my results with both loads.

Dave

 

[roundball]

"...any "pet loads" and performance results for various game would be good to hear..."

Thanks, the 60grns powder x 80grns shot load is one I'll be trying in this .54cal...falls into that 1:1.3 ratio as I do the math.

In getting ready for the the range trip on Monday, I've got large ziploc bags of 35mm film canisters loaded with 60grns Goex, and another with 70grns Goex.
I have sets of 35mm canisters with pre-measured shot charges, ie: 70/80/90/100grn measures of #5s/#6s/#7.5s.
Pattern sheets are ready with pre-printed stickers already stuck on so all I have to do is circle a few items to identify the distance, load components for that particular target.
A grocery bag full of tuna cans for penetration testing at different distances rounds out the tests.

Looking for the best combination of pattern density / penetration / distance for a solid squirrel/small game load out of this 42" x .54cal barrel.

 

[roundball]

Tomorrow I'm bringing my 10 ga. to a small get-together at a range with a patterning board. I'll report my results with both loads.

Wish I could find / be able to afford a good SxS Flint double....

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I haven't run across the kind of charts you're referring to...pretty sure you've posted your agreement in the past with higher shot to powder ratios...do you happen to have a pet hunting load for the .54cal smoothbore?

I've always been a proponent of "equal volume loads" and have always scaled the load to the gauge.
I haven't yet tried my new .54 smoothrifle with birdshot, I'm still struggling to get some sort of group with balls. When I do try shot I'll most likely start with 3/4 ounce and surely will not exceed one ounce.
One such chart has for many years appeared in the back of the Dixie Gun Works catalog, though that one is from 1887. W.W. Greener also provided such a chart in his book "The Gun" I'm pretty sure Col. Peter Hawker offered recommended loads in his book and I've seen reference to others. Gun makers have always had to cover their butts by providing maximum loads for their guns just as all makers do today.
Shot loads were always measured according to the gauge of the gun, and in the English system of measure the load was rounded to the nearest 1/8 of an ounce. With guns smaller than 16 gauge it was normally rounded up to the nearest one eighth and larger gauges rounded down. Thus a 20 gauge 1/20 of a pound was rounded up to 7/8 ounce and a 12 gauge 1/12 of a pound was rounded down to 1 1/4 ounce.
Equal volumes of powder and shot was also the standard. Peter Hawker recommended the use of just one, non adjustable measure for both powder and shot. He thoroughly disparaged the practice of "over-loading", feeling the loss of velocity and penetration more than offset the gain in pattern density. His instructions were related to general "fowling" which mostly involved wing shooting, perhaps he might have had different ideas for stationary targets, he did get a bit into punt guns but it's been many years since I've read it.
I'm not trying to tell anyone how to load their gun
I'm only saying the loads found today in plastic shotshells did not originate there but were the loads most commonly used in their muzzleloading predecessors. They are not the loads which just accidentally happened to fit the shell, but the load the shell was designed to hold. There is a great deal of room to increase or decrease the load in shotshells by simply adjusting the height of the wad column. For many years the Brits found a 12 gauge shell of just two inches in length to hold all the powder and shot they needed, generally 2 3/4 drams/ 1 1/8 ounces . American taste has tended toward heavier loads in shells of 2 1/2", 2 3/4", 3" and now 3 1/2". I find it interesting that the Magnum trend has reached even the muzzleloading shotgun.

 

[George]

I guess the discussion about ratios of powder and shot goes back quite far, but generally concern the same choices discussed today. Markland, in his poem of 1727, said,

"One Third the well-turn'd Shot superior must
Arise, and overcome the nitrous Dust,"

Forty years later Page said in his 1767 book,

"FRIENDLY
Pray, what is your method of loading? I have been told that gunsmiths in general put in a large quantity of small shot, to make them fill the paper they shoot at .

AIMWELL
'Tis very true, indeed, they are often obliged to it, when gentlemen won't be satisfied with what is reasonable for a gun to do; and it is a common practice in this country to load with a pipe bowl of powder and a bowl and a half of shot ; and when they find they can't kill often, think they don't put shot enough, and so put in more, and are obliged to lessen the quantity of powder to prevent its recoiling; not considering this axiom, "that action and re-action are equal''-that upon discharge of powder the gun is forced back, as the shot is forwards, in proportion to the weight of shot to the weight of the gun. . . . But if less of shot than powder will not carry the shot close enough for long shoots, they will certainly fly thick enough at shorter distances. To avoid the extremes, I use the best powder, and put in equal measures of that and shot, which in weight is nearly as one to seven, but usually prime out of that quantity. To a barrel of a middle-sized bore, whose diameter is about five-eighths of an inch (which I look upon to be the best size for shooting flying) [.625", exactly a modern 20 ga.] I put in two ounces of shot, No. 4, [equivalent to #5 1/2 modern American shot] which are about 200 in an ounce, and an equal measure of powder. [4 1/2 dram/123 gr.] This is the charge I use in the field."

So 1:1.5 and 1:1 seem to be old ideas. I've generally found something in between the two to work for my smoothbores of 20 ga. and 28 ga., probably in the range of 1:1.3. A load of 50 gr. FFg and 65 grains #5 shot does good work on squirrels in the 28 gauge, and 60 gr. FFFg and 80 gr. #5 does the same in my 20 gauge, although I sometimes use 90 grains #5 if I'm hunting the taller timber.

Spence

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Most folks not accustomed to flint locks find the double clam shell look very intriguing. I wonder if you over-load one of the pans, whether or not it causes the second barrel to ignite by accident if you don't close the frizzen?

Good idea to wear safety glasses using one of those cool guns!

 

[majg1234]

well spence after reading what you posted I guess my turkey load of #5's is not too far fetched for my 20 gauge... 2oz shot 90-100 gr ffg,does kick a might but nothing like my 10g SXS smokeless

 

[George]

well spence after reading what you posted I guess my turkey load of #5's is not too far fetched for my 20 gauge... 2oz shot 90-100 gr ffg,does kick a might but nothing like my 10g SXS smokeless

Sounds like my max load, 2 oz. #6 over 80 grains FFFg. Turkeys don't like it much.

Recoil in BP guns has never been a problem for me with even the heaviest charges. Something about the speed of ignition and the generally heavier BP guns I shoot, I suspect. On the other hand, many years ago I decided to learn to turkey hunt, set up to do it with my 12 gauge Remington 870. I bought 10 heavy turkey shells and did some patterning, found I could put most if the pellets in a dinner plate at 45 yards, but that thing set me back on my heels and rattled my teeth like no gun I ever fired. Strange, because I had been shooting that same gun for 45 years and it had never kicked me with any shell I fired. BP is soothing, in comparison. That hunt never happened, and I'm still glad.

Spence

 

[majg1234]

you really want the stuffing kicked outa ya try a benelli super black eagle with 3 1/2 shells :wink: But all that aside I find ALL my BP guns more pleasant to shoot than some of my CF stuff,that's one reason why more and more my BP guns are going afield and the CF stuff is staying @ home

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Bill,

Last Sunday one of the three clubs I shoot black powder at held a day-long skills event. One of the several skills was clay bird shooting. I decided to try my customized load of 85 grains of 3Fg Goex, a .125 OP card, a 10 ga. pre-lubed wonder-wad, 1 1/8 oz. of #7.5 combined with 7/8 oz. of #6's (my pheasant load). So that's 2 oz. of shot in the cylinder-bore 10 ga. Broke 8 outta 10, most of em' were "dusted". The 2 I missed were my fault getting used to the lead :redface: , NOT any fault with the load, gun, etc.

I started using that gun for clays with 1 5/8 oz. loads of #7.5's and decided to try some #6's to "extend" my range due to the 6's hitting a little harder at longer than 25 yard ranges. Raising the amount of shot seems to have filled-in the density of my pattern.....

Tomorrow I'm bringing my 10 ga. to a small get-together at a range with a patterning board. I'll report my results with both loads.

Dave

Well we all had a great time today! Everybody had to try the 10 ga.! The 2 oz. load hit the patterning steel target well at 30 yards with the cylinder bore side of the gun! Not much room for a clay to escape on the entire 2'x3' steel target. No wonder the pheasants went down so well!

Also did a coffee can test at 15 yards. Nice pattern in the can, but not blown all to hell. Could really see the difference that the #6's made as far as penetration of the hard aluminum/steel-like can. Exit holes much larger than the #7.5 shot. This combo load dusted many a clay bird today too .

If I get another crack at the pattern tester, I'll spend some time just working on different loads. I might try a 1 3/4 oz load of shot and increase to 90 grains of powder to get the load moving just a little faster :hmm: .

Will report on the progress.....

Dave

 

[roundball]

Sounds like that .10ga has serious whompability !

Everything here is loaded for tomorrow morning's range trip, set up by first light.
Premeasured powder charges of 60 & 70grns Goex 2F, and 60 & 70grns of 3F, plus premeasured shot charges of #5s/#6s/#7.5s.

 

[Stumpkiller]

As I recall, a 7/8oz load in a 20ga. is a "square" load. This means that the payload is as tall in the barrel as it is round. The same thing in a 1oz. load in a 16ga. and a 1 1/8oz. load in a 12ga. I have also found in old writings that the loads from the flint period were pretty close to the loads today in a hull. As a matter of fact I use the box information as a starting guide line. If it has worked for ALL these years, it can't be too far off. After all they also use dram equiv. in the modern loads, so I test with the actual dram equiv. as a starting point as well.

I go with that thought, as well. A gauge refers to the number of lead balls per pound that are of bore size. If you substitute lead shot of that weight you come out with the oz. of shot common to each bore: 1-1/3 oz for a 12, 1 oz for a 16, 0.8 oz for a 20, etc.. This is also the "square" column: as tall as it is wide. This gives the optimum shot density. Load two ounces in a 20 gauge and it will string out like a hose on a moving target. Looks good on paper but the game may not be where that part of the pattern is when you want it to be.

Also, the longer the column in he bore the more is deformed when fired (Per Jack O'Connor in The Complete Book of Rifle and Shotguns.)

Also note 12 bore shells were 2-5/8" for a long time - especially in England. There were also 2-1/2" and the 2-3/4" came later.

 

[roundball]

Sometimes, one of the problems when referencing the data & thinking from times past is that is was limited by what was known at the time...but meanwhile the landscape has continued to move forward and change over time with new products and new data findings.

While the notion of a square load might sound good as it was certainly convenient that it happened to be the same dimensions up and across, we need to remember that 2&3/4" shells and that kind of associated thinking are now pretty dated.
Doesn't mean square loads aren't still square, just means that loads which are not square are also very functional with high performance after all.

In that same .12ga diameter bore, we have seen magnum loads of shot charges evolve well past the 1+1/8 and 1+1/4oz, to 1+3/8oz and 1+1/2oz....no longer square loads at all...yet with outstanding performance.
And we've seen the 3" shell evolve with its much larger shot charge in that same .12ga diameter bore, also now pretty commonplace, also with outstanding performance...using shot charges of 1+5/8oz, 1+3/4oz, 1+7/8oz, 2oz, etc...which are a long, long, long ways from a square load of 1+1/8oz.

None of these loads of the past couple decades are even close to being square yet they're used for ducks, geese, crows, etc, on the wing with no worries about shot stringing...