PRB question

[bbassi]

I was shooting my 54 with PRB's tonight for the first time in years. This gun shoots buffalo bullets extreamly well so that's what I've hunted with for years, but recently I've decided to try to work up a PRB load for hunting. my question is this; I recovered about 6-7 patches from in front of the bench. All were either in pieces or had several holes in them presumably from the rifling. I was shooting a .535 ball and a .010 prelubes patch with wonder lube over 85 gr. of Goex 2F. It shot reasonably well from the bench considering my lack of shooting it over the last few months, but by going to a .530 and .010 it started spraying them wildly. From what I've read here its not good to cut the patches on the rifling, so can someone make some suggestions? :thanks:

 

[roundball]

I was shooting my 54 with PRB's tonight for the first time in years. This gun shoots buffalo bullets extreamly well so that's what I've hunted with for years, but recently I've decided to try to work up a PRB load for hunting. my question is this; I recovered about 6-7 patches from in front of the bench. All were either in pieces or had several holes in them presumably from the rifling. I was shooting a .535 ball and a .010 prelubes patch with wonder lube over 85 gr. of Goex 2F. It shot reasonably well from the bench considering my lack of shooting it over the last few months, but by going to a .530 and .010 it started spraying them wildly. From what I've read here its not good to cut the patches on the rifling, so can someone make some suggestions? :thanks:

.010" patches are awfully thin and weak, particularly for strong powder charges...try .018" lubed pillow ticking patches with the .530's...thicker, stronger, tighter weave patches should eliminate the burning/shredding

 

[Rebel]

Also, you bore might be leaded up from the Ball-Etts. Try giving it a good cleaning with a lead removing solvent and a muzzleloader bore brush.

 

[Zonie]

The fault may be with the material the patches are made from, or the thickness of the patch. (IMO, .010 is usually too thin for most patched round balls. This is especially true if your shooting a gun like the GPR which has .010 deep rifleing grooves.)
A cut or blown patch sometimes is the result of not applying enough patch lube to the patch too.

Those prelubed patches may also have been old. Sometimes the material will start to break down and loose strength if it has been coated with oils or lubes.

I would suggest that you try some .015 thick patches and if you can find it, some red/white or blue/white pillow ticking which is sold at WalMart. This ticking is about .018 thick and has the strength to take the abuse of doing what a patch needs to do.

Had you not said you have shot the gun quite a bit, I would say the rifleing is still new and sharp. That may still be the case, but before doing the steel wool or lapping compound thing, just try the heavier, stronger patches.

 

[bbassi]

Also, you bore might be leaded up from the Ball-Etts. Try giving it a good cleaning with a lead removing solvent and a muzzleloader bore brush.

Or, I may just have to face the fact that this gun doesn't like PRBs so I have to find a new one that does..... (I'm thinking of trying this line on my wife, do you think it will work?) ::

 

[Zonie]

Of course it will work! ::

Just be sure to point out that the patched roundballs cost a LOT less than the bullets for the other gun so you will be saving enough money to not only pay for the new gun in a few months, but after that, the gun will be producing a profit!! :: ::

Just don't make it sound like the profit will be so large that you can live on it. If you do that, you might find yourself and the new gun out in the street. :boohoo:

:: ::

 

[bbassi]

Had you not said you have shot the gun quite a bit, I would say the rifleing is still new and sharp. That may still be the case, but before doing the steel wool or lapping compound thing, just try the heavier, stronger patches.

Zonie, the gun is about 15 years old and has had well over 1000 rounds through it, so I'm guessing it is broken in ok. I did notice that there were 2 spots inside the barrel that while loading, it seamed to resist more than the rest of the barrel. Could there be damage inside the barrel such as pitting or something that causes this cutting? I've tried to take good care of it and the last time I cleaned it the patches were comming out real clean, but I wonder if at some point I might have done some damage to it. Any thoughts?

 

[Zonie]

As others have said, there may be some lead in the barrel.
Pits don't usually cause a noticable resistance to loading but a lead buildup could.

As I, and almost everyone else mentioned, the .010 thick patches are probably the cause of the tearing and the poor accuracy.

 

[Rebel]

Could be lead build up in those spots.

 

[riarcher]

For the bore;
Get some fine abrasive (semi-chrome, lapping, rubbing compound, even Lava soap would work) and lap that area with your abrasive and a non-lubricating oil or plain water. Try your range rod and tight patch. Could be just a "crud ring". I just went through that with my Bess.

Blown patches;
Sounds like a case of "smaller ball and thicker patch". I love tight patches. Tight just before the point of possibly damaging the ball (snug,, but not hammer tight). I like a thick patch too. There is more to compress and feel this helps to seal gas leaks/burns. But the biggest reason is really the thicker patch has more surface contact (wider band around the ball) and engages rifling better. Also this stops the ball from rolling like a bowling ball down the barrel. (big story on that,,,, I'm not saying it's so,,,, but I'm not sayin' it isn't either)

I'm thinking .530 +.010(X2)=.550 That's only .005 compression on the land, and probably not even close to filling the rifling (let alone compress enough to seal).

 

[roundball]

.....and probably not even close to filling the rifling (let alone compress enough to seal).

FWIW, I agree with this so strongly that I intentionally use oversize (next caliber size) pillow ticking patches (ie: .54/.58cal size patches with a .50cal ball) in hopes of getting more material wadded down into the grooves.

In theory, if this actually does force more material down into the grooves, it should increase sealing, put more lube into the bore, contribute to a more positive ball grip & rotation, and wipe the grooves better...no science, just my speculation...(at least it doesn't have a negative effect)

 

[Tom Curran]

Try to see if your patches are either
a) cut
b) blown

A blown or burned patch will show burn holes around the ball in a circle, alternating with clean unburned material where the ball was riding on the lands of the rifle. The burn holes come from hot gasses going past the ball via the grooves because the patch is not thick enough to fill the grooves. Use a thicker and stronger patch, maybe even in combination with a smaller ball.

A cut patch can be from at least a couple of causes:
The rifling being too sharp. these cuts may appear as tiny radial cuts only where the patch and ball grip the rifling.
A cut patch can also happen during loading if you are hammering too big a ball into the muzzle, and the ball starts to deform, cutting the patch as it enters the bore. The patch will have a circular cut that is concentric with the outer circle of the patch.
The patch can also be abraded by a rusty spot in the barrel, god forbid, but you'd never let your barrel get rusty, would you?

 

[Rat]

The .018" patch should be the way to go, especially with the .530" ball.

Put a Wonder Wad under the ball and you will be amazed at the difference that will make as far as protecting the patch.

Every gun, a law unto it's self. My Brown Bess smokes patches WORSE with coarse powder, than with fine powder. Figure THAT one out! But with a Wonder Wad, it don't matter.

I am beginning to believe in the thick patch...but you never know. My new (to me) Plains Pistol is shooting laser accurate with .010" patches, .490" ball, over even 65 grains of fffg. Patches in perfect condition.

Here's a weird one for you: With a denim .037" patch, and .570" round ball, my .61 Jaeger will shoot accurately. That don't even add up to .612", which is my bore size. WHAT'S UP WITH THAT???? I believe that comes to .607" if my math is right, and it feels nice and tight going down the barrel. Yes the balls measure DEAD ON at .570". And yes, recovered patches are in perfect condition, and could be used again.

So...ya never know.

Indeed sounds like you have some leading or something, or perhaps the barrel always had tight spots? But maybe did not notice it with slugs?

Loose spots is what you've got to worry about, as far as the barrel being damaged or faulty. Give the barrel a good brushing, then work on the tight areas and see if you can dredge up any lead or fouling.

Ok don't forget to experiment with different lubes.

Rat

 

[Richard Allen]

Cypeher it agin, Rat. You must have been figgering it using "Modern Math".

If you're patching the whole ball, your equation should be .570 ball +.037 patch +.037 patch =.644.

At least that's the way I was taught to figger it with "Old Math" back in the 60s.

Richard/Ga.

 

[Rebel]

You'll have to forgive Rat. He just got back from a Kayak trip and that put him close to the one thing he is fearsome of, H2O, WATER. Man just don't believe in the uses that good 'ol water has for cleaning. So, he probably isn't over the shock of being surrounded by it, and his math isn't up to par. :: I know, I know, ff: ::

 

[rhwestfall]

as was posted 3/6/2005 by bbassi - "I have owned and hunted with a Cabela's Hawkins style percussion gun now for about 15 years and have really enjoyed it"

hey man, this is a flintlock page.... :nono:

What, you get that new gun? :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

Maybe we should have this post moved.....oh Mr. Moderator.......

(just kidding).

maybe that gun is the cause of the problem. As zonie said, better work on the mrs. ..... :haha:

BobW eace:

 

[bbassi]

as was posted 3/6/2005 by bbassi - "I have owned and hunted with a Cabela's Hawkins style percussion gun now for about 15 years and have really enjoyed it"


As Mr. BobW said, it is a cap gun, but from my reading, the gentleman that frequint this page have as much if not more experience with PRB's than any other forum, so I figured this was the place to post this question. besides, regardless of ball and patch combo, I bet it could hit the inside of say, a garage roof with any load, and you didn't complain when it worked for you, smarta$$!

(Sorry folks, inside joke)

 

[Stumpkiller]

Maybe we should have this post moved.....oh Mr. Moderator.......

Wha? Huh? Who'zere?

. . . the gentlemen that frequent this page have as much if not more experience with PRB's than any other forum, so I figured this was the place to post this question.

He has rekunized our greatur wizedom. Kain't fault him thar. :front:

 

[Rat]

Reb is right...all that H2O did scare me...I was constantly afraid of being pumped up a giant rifle barrel. But...I avoid math too...me and math don't get along either!

Anyhow, well that would explain why the patch and ball, at .607 don't fall down the .612" bore, but wouldn't .644" be incredibly tight?

Or is you saying that there is enough compression involved? It is a nice tight fit, but not tighter than a .600" ball and a .018" patch. (which would be .636"?)

Both combo's would be compressing about .024-.032"?? I'm getting confused here. The .570" ball is compressing that .037" patch .032? Or am I compressing a .074" patch .032"? Maybe that's reasonable.

My Plains Pistol takes a .490" ball and a .010" patch for a easy effort load. Now that's .490+.020=.510...that's only .010" compression. ?? That would explain being able to press it down a pistol bore easy...??

Oh boy someone 'splain this to me better...or am I getting it?

:: :what: ::

Rat