problem with burnt patchs

[4444]

question on my .50 cal. GP rifle, I've got over 100 shots though it. Right now I'm throwing 55grains of fffg triple 7. Its getting 4 inch groups. I'm shooting .15 wonder lube patchs. I'm burning up patchs, and it seems like I should be getting better groups at fifty yards. Today I spent 3 hours at the range tapping and filing, I tried 70, 6o, 55 grains of ffg goex with .15 wonderlube patchs and .15 slavia dry patchs. Just seems like no matter what I try I burn up patchs. help.

 

[Rebel]

What size ball you using? A .015 patch might be to thin with the ball you are using, get some pillow ticking or #40 Drill cloth at JoAnns Fabrics and lube it with Crisco and try it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Triple 7 is NOT Black Powder. It burns at a much higher temperature than black powder. that is why your patches are burning. IMHO, the best thing you can do is Stop using it!

With Goex Black Powder( Not Pioneer) you should have much less a problem. Are you using .490 balls and a .015" thick patch, that is lubed before you go to the range? If not, you are causing the problem with the patches.

The lube has to completely saturate the patch to protect it from burning up. Use FFg powder, rather than FFFg powder, as it burns at less pressure, and therefore creates less temperature. Measure the actual bore( Land to land ) and Groove diameter of the barrel. The groove depth( the distance from the lands to the bottom of the groove) will help you pick the right thickness for your cotton patches.

Use only cotton patches, or linen. Avoid T-shirts and other cotton fabrics that have nylon, or other synthetics woven into them to help them stay pressed. The synthetics melt at a much lower temperature, and cause the cotton to fail. Try to use patch material with a good tight weave. Buy Cotton drill ( used for men's pants pockets) to use for patching if you can't find a good thickness of pillow ticking, or mattress ticking( there is a difference.) Use canvas, if you have to , but lube your patches at home, nuke them in the micro for 5-10 seconds to help spread the lube through the fabric if you are in a rush, and then bag them in a plastic bag, or put them in a sealed tin to take to the range.

Your ball diameter needs to be about l0 to 15 thousandths SMALLER than the bore diameter, to give you room for the patching. Some go as low as 20 thousandths lower. It depends on the caliber, and your actual bore dimension.

My .50 is .501" and the .490 works just right. I have tried .495" balls, but they were harder to load, and if I reduced the thickness of the patching, the patches began to burn, even with FFg powder.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

:youcrazy:

trip;e 7 easily burns up patches, ive tried it. Switch to either real blackpowder Or Pyrodex RS. Pyrodex RS works excellent for PRB shooting. Try some powerbelts or conicals with the triple 7. My Mountain rifle loves triple 7 and a 225 grain powerbelt for hunting.

 

[FTW]

With triple 7 you will have to use .020 patches like Hodgdon says in their reloading book.All I can shoot is 60 grs. in my 50's without burning the patch unless I put 15 grs.of cornmeal between the powder and the patched ball then I can go up to 100 grs. if I need too.You can use felt wads instead of cornmeal but they cost quit a bit more than a pound of cornmeal,$6.00 for 50.

 

[redwing]

I don't like to admit to it but I own a Perc. Long Rifle. I tried some of the T7 when it came out. The rifle a .50 was very accurate but at 60 Grs. of T7 the .018 patches wet with BP Plus were burning up.
I also found that the stuff T7 will leave a tar like substance in the barrel, if its cleaned with water. It will get very gummed up after a time even though you are cleaning the barrel after shooting it.
I just put the whole thing aside and went back to a flinter with real black powder. :thumbsup:

 

[Swampman]

In a .50 I prefer a .485 ball when possible. 60 grains of 3F would be the load I'd use. Is it possible that the lands in your rifle are still sharp enough to be cutting the patches? Try some olive oil for patch lube.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

all good answers to your que - I use a felt 'wad'
I punch out of Duro-felt in my .50 and 50 grains 3F when target practice.

 

[longcruise]

question on my .50 cal. GP rifle, I've got over 100 shots though it. Right now I'm throwing 55grains of fffg triple 7. Its getting 4 inch groups. I'm shooting .15 wonder lube patchs. I'm burning up patchs, and it seems like I should be getting better groups at fifty yards. Today I spent 3 hours at the range tapping and filing, I tried 70, 6o, 55 grains of ffg goex with .15 wonderlube patchs and .15 slavia dry patchs. Just seems like no matter what I try I burn up patchs. help.

I've been DTR (down the road :wink: ) with three Lyman GPR rifles and all of them had this problem from the get go. The rifling on these barrels is cut and left with some very sharp knife edge lands and also with some serious burrs.

On my first rifle dating back to '83, I ran at least 300 balls through and it was still cutting the patches and delivering rather poor accuracy. At about that time I had been firelapping some modern arms both pistols and rifles. Some to improve the internal dimensions and some to smooth up for cast bullet shooting.

I decided to give the GPR a firelapping treatment. In my first effort, I used the lapping compound (a commercial firelapping compound, not a homemade concoction) as a patch lube. That worked, but did not do much to smooth the bottom surfaces of the grooves. Next I bought a box of 25 conicals that had a somewhat hollow base and rolled the lap compound into the conicals. I applied no lube and fired these conicals over about 20 or 25 grains of ff. I carefully wiped the barrel clean of fouling after each shot. There was no attempt to hit a target or even post one. The shots were simply fired downrange. Next, the rifle went home and was given a good cleaning using tap warm water and a bit of soap and then dried up and some rust preventative applied. Next trip to the range I discovered the rifle would shoot very well and the patches were no longer being cut. Problem solved!

I have since then built and firelapped two more GPRs and got the same good results. I have also firelapped two Green Mountain barrels and one Traditions barrel. The GM barrels showed nearly no change due to the better quality of the rifling in them. The Traditions barrel was a repeat of the GPR experience.

I've also firelapped a Cabelas Hawken for a friend and it made it a more accurate and consistent shooter.

Firelapping TC barrels did not seem to have much effect. I think maybe because they are button rifled and don't have the sharp edges left by a the Spanish barrel makers.

You are wasting your time playing with the sights at this point. Get the gun smoothed out and ready to shoot at it's true potential and then play with the sights.

Once you get your gun shooting to it's potential, keep your eyes open for used GPRs. Most of them never get more than 50 or shots through them and the owners give up and are ready to dump them cheap :haha:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use steel wool wrapped around a bore brush for a .50 cal. gun, to polish off the edges of those lands, so that you stop cutting holes in the patches. I think this is more likely an explanation for the " burned patches you are finding, than the fact that your lube is not doing the job.

YOu can also use valve lapping compound found at auto supply stores to smooth the bore of these guns. Just use a bore brush, again, with a couple of patches dampened with a solvent, and then coated with lapping compound to polish the lands and grooves. The bore brush does an excellent job of pushing the patching into the grooves. I am talking about cleaning patches, not ball patches.

Mark your barrel in 1/4 lengths. Run the lapping compound all the way down to the breech plug, and then stroke back and forth 50 times in the back 1/4 of the barrel. Change the lapping compound and the patching if it gets to easy to push and pull in the barrel. Don't hesitate to apply more compound. When you finish the 50 strokes on the bottom end of the barrel, repeat the process, but this time do 1/2 of the length of the barrel, so that the bottom 1/4 gets another 50 strokes, and the next 1/4 gets its first 50. Repeat for the bottom 3/4 of the barrel, and then for the whole barrel. When you conclude, the bottom will have received 200 strokes, the top quarter will have received 50 strokes, and the two 1/4 sections in the middle will have received 150 and 100 strokes each. This will cause the rifle to have a little choke in the barrel, which helps your accuracy. Choke is the tightening of the bore as you near the muzzle.

The choke is a by product of cleaning the fine burrs off the edges of the rifling. ( lands) But its a nice thing to do while you are working on that particular problem.

You rgun show shoot better than 4 inch groups. If you solve the burned or cutting of patches as we have suggested, you should see your group size drop in half or more. Also, check the sights on the barrel to make sure they are not loose in their dovetails, and can't move from shot to shot. :have a buddy who is a good shot also shoot your gun. See if its you, flinching, that is opening the groups, or if its the cut patches as we suspect. If he can't get the group to shoot with that load, either, its probably the gun and not you. That can be very reassuring to know. :thumbsup:

 

[sidelock]

For the life of me, I can't understand why any one is still using fake BP when so much has been written here about the differences in performance between REAL black powder and the fakes. BOY :youcrazy: :youcrazy: BOY I just don't know????

 

[4444]

I had a pretty good idea I cutting patches, and that the T7 was finishing them off, because after some shots it was extremly difficult to find anything left of the patch. So I got some .018 prelubed TC pillow ticking, but I can't get the hornady .490 ball even started. So then I got a can of Goex fffg and its all over the place, and the patches are still burnt. At least I can get somewhat of a group with the T7. I would love to get away from it if at possible!
I do beleive this rifle needs to be lapped, because on occasion when I do find a somewhat intact patch it looks to be cut up. Can I buy lapping compound at most sporting goods places (Sportsmans Warehouse)? Just realized I posted this in the wrong forum, sorry.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Nigel: Look for lapping compound in any auto supply store. Ask for it. Call first. The barrel is definitely cutting your patches. If you can't do anything else, use toothpaste for lapping compound, It takes 4 times as much work, but it will work.

I prefer to wrap 0000 steel wool around a bore brush and work the burrs off the lands with that. Its much quicker, and generally does an excellent job.

 

[Shifty]

nigel, I did as paul said with the fine water clean up valve grinding compound, then with semi-chrome polish. my 58cal went from cutting patchs & 4" groups at 50yds to 3/4" groups and un cut patchs at 50yds.Shifty

 

[longcruise]

You can buy firelapping compound fro Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) and you can also get a kit from Midway called the Wheeler Firelapping Kit. The Wheeler kit suggests using full charges even with modern firearms loads, but I stay with light charges of 20 to 25 grains of BP om the .45 to .58 caliber guns.

Understand that Paul is taling about handlapping using the valve grinding compound. Don't firelap with valve grinding compound! You might end up with a smoothbore! :shocked2: