problems

Hi ,
Hope someone can assist.
I am breaking in a new Griffen 20 ga. bbl. Shooting round ball (600 cal ) 85 gr 3 f with a 10 thousand cotton patch greased with wonder lube.

At the approx 12-13 yd . sight in she will cut a bull with a grouping to die for .

When I get out to any distance 40-50 yds it all goes to pot . No consistance what so ever .
:huh:
Any Ideas????

Thanks

Stews

 

[Stumpkiller]

Three things:

Smoothbores occasioially throw knuckleballs and sliders. Something happens to that non-spinning ball that suddenly causes it to "jink" unpredictably. Make sure you're placing the sprue up for consistancy.

Inconsistancy in aiming (no reflection on your shooting abilities). Looking at a target dot over a barrel with no sights is easier at 25 yards than it is at 50 yards. You have to concentrate on the target with a smoothie, and it gets progressively harder to see as it gets farther away. The shorter the barrel the harder it is to "bore-sight". Concentrate on the target and point it like a shotgun instead of trying to aim it like a rifle. Practice, practice, practice.

Fatigue (mental and physical). If you're concentrating too hard your brain gets bored, fried, sloppy after an extended session. Try three shot groups and wipe between to give your brain a rest.

 

I believe your accuracy will improve with 80gr. 2F rather than 3F. Secondly, what exactly is your " no consistance"?
: With a good load, our barrel should shoot into groups from 4" to 8".
; Stumpkiller is absolutely correct - Smoothbores will throw knuckleballs sometimes. Actually ,there is more to that than many know. It actually IS throwing a knuckleball - at times. They also throw curves, sliders, drop balls, risers - you name it, and a smoothbore is theoreticaly capable of doing it.

 

[RussB]

"Actually ,there is more to that than many know. It actually IS throwing a knuckleball - at times. They also throw curves, sliders, drop balls, risers - you name it, and a smoothbore is theoreticaly capable of doing it. "


In my very limited experience with smoothies I have found this to be a fact. I was thinking "speed" may be the culprit on top of sighting properly, albeit I do have rifle sights. Powder adjustment seemed to help a little, but I'm not sure there is an absolute cure. I have a long way to go in shooting smooth bores, learn something new every day. Today I hope to try the "naked" ball, maybe, just maybe, I will see some difference. After "rolling" the ball the thought crossed my mind that a patch on it may stop the curves, the sliders, and sometimes erratic behavior that a plain patched ball displays...we'll see.
I would like to know what you mean by "not consistant". Would you alaborate on this just a bit?
Respectfully, Russ

 

Taylor and I are going out with the Bess' tomorrow morning. Apparently, there are several smoothbore trails at the Hefley Creek Rendezvous with several smoothbore shoots being put on by various clubs. Taylor said one of them is particularly challenging.
: The naked RB will probably spin in the barrel, resulting in curve balls, at least that is the logical result. On the other hand, some guys say their best accuracy is with naked balls and shotgun wads. We'll see tomorrow what transpires with our 10 and 11 bores, using .715, .720, .735 and .744 dia. balls, patched, naked, patched with wads, paper ctgs., etc, as well as some shot loads, just for something different. I have 8 1/2's and he had 7 1/2's. Good thing I didn't throw away my 30" lexan circle with the 20" core.

 

[musketman]

When I get out to any distance 40-50 yds it all goes to pot . No consistance what so ever .
:huh:
Any Ideas????

Well Stews, I would also suggest changing to FFg as Daryl stated, FFFg presure spikes are too fast for larger bores...

Also, try a fiber wad between the powder and the ball (patched or unpatched with a over shot card above it), I think this will also help your extended length shooting...

 

[Slowpoke]

What are your groups like at 50 yards?
Are you shooting from a bench or offhand?

From your post I would lower your powder charge to 65 grains of 2f.
Go to a thicker patch and change your lube to a liquid type: water, spit, or Murphy's Oil Soap and water.

It should settle down a little bit.... Then once (if there is an improvemnet) try these thing to see if they improve your group.

1. Start by putting a wad then PRB.
2. Wad, bare ball, and over card

I like 65 grains of 2F for 25 and 50 yards, and 100g for 100 yards and a hunting load. 85 grains is a lot of powder for 25 and 50 yard.

S'Poke

 

Thanks for your comments . All suggestions are more than appreciated.
Level and Square
stews

 

Will try the 2F . Thanks
Level and Square
stews

 

Shoot 3 to 5 ball at 50 yards they hit all over the target . Left ,right , high , low . No two in a row in the same spot .

Thanks for the reply

 

Thanks , tomorrow I am going to try the 2F and the fiber wads.

 

Thanks for the help , am going back out tomorrow before shift and will try the suggestions . Will keep you posted,
Am shooting off the bench at this point.

 

[RussB]

"Also, try a fiber wad between the powder and the ball (patched or unpatched with a over shot card above it), I think this will also help your extended length shooting..."

Well Musketman, I finally got to shoot the infamous "naked" ball this afternoon. At least "some" shooting...Too stinking hot to have fun, seemed more like a chore.
Anyway, the dimpling with the rasp did a fair job, and the lube was fairly firm, meaning it wasn't too much of a mess to load.
However, accuracy was far from acceptable.
I then loaded the ball over half a fiber wad (just pulled it appart with my fingers) and things improved a bit. Still nowhere as good as my plain patched ball. I will go out in the morning before it gets so hot, and try a few more. Right now I'm not very impressed, perhaps things will improve as I go along. However, I can finally say..."I did that". I'm thinking a "stiff" lube may have a lot to do with the performance of the ball in this case, and I know I've got to work on that a bit.
Thanks for your patience in this.
Respectfully, Russ

 

[Rebel]

Russ, although not PC, you might try using a plastic .20 ga shotcup sort of like a sabot. Cut the cushion off the base and then cut the wad so it is just long enough for the ball to sit in and leave just a little above it so that an over shot card will sit on it. I tried this in my double barrel .12 ga. and at 25 yds 4 shots, 2 from each barrel, went into the same hole just making it a little larger. I know it isn't period correct, but i want to use it for hunting, and want the best accuracy i can get no matter how i get it. Just a thought.

 

The plastic wad base is what I used in the 24" barreled double 12 I had with the .725" bores. The .715 balls, sitting on the base cups, 1 up, 1 down, did very well, shooting tighter than any other combo. The cups, or single one with shortened petals, held the ball centered in the bore on it's trip. I used wads I picked up at the range and they worked just fine. One problem I did have, was the BP melting the plastic and fouling the bore. A single card wad, between the plastic cup and powder, elimintated the plastic fouling problem.
: This type of loading also shot well in my double, however I did find that the higher the veloctiy, the more accurately it shot. As the loading wasn't in a muzzleloader, but in a breechloader, I used the standard 12 bore RB load of 150gr. 2F. This is considerably higher than what would normally be used in muzzleloaders for North American game, although it was the lower of two standard 12 bore African loads.
: In a 20 bore, raising the velocity level with 2F or 1 F might be a consideration. In the ctg. gun, it did shoot much better with higher velocity than ligher loads.

 

[Rebel]

I was loading the caplock double barrel with 80 grs of Pyrodex RS, and over powder card wad then a half a fiber cushion wad. Then i would start the cut off plastic shotcup below the muzzle, put the ball in, sprue up, and an overshot card wad on top and then ram the ball and cup down on top of the fiber cushion wad. Didn't have a fouling problem using the RS. Did get very good groups though. The cut off plastic shotcup kept the ball tight in the barrel and prevented the knuckleball effect i think. JMO

 

My take on the knuckle-ball is the result from a ball that has absolutely no spin on it- just the same as the pitch called the knuckle-ball. IT is deliverd without any spin, which causes it to bounce on air currents and 'bob' up and down as it flies towards the target(plate). This is the knuckleball. IT is erratic in behavior and hard to hit. Because it isn't going very fast, this happens between the pitcher and the plate. The faster it is going, the more distance covered before the flight becomes too erratic- hopefully.
: In patching, we are holding the ball from spinning, to prevent a curve ball. Any method of holding the ball from spinning, or from bouncing inside the barrel(which causes spinning) is actually presenting the knuckleball to the air. The knuckleball will go more accurately than one spinning so fast it zooms out of line, like a hook or slice in golf - which actually is a fair representation of a musket ball's flight beyond 100yards or so. We are looking at the initial 0 to 100 yds. of it's flight and trying to get it to fly reasonably straight for that distance. :imo:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Another point: a smoothbore generally throws a big 'ol hunk of lead. At the muzzle it may be cooking along at 1,400 fps but at some point it drops below 1,080 fps - the sound barrier. When that happens there is a lot of turbulance as the boundry layer ahead of the ball deforms; it actually catches up to and passes slightly ahead of the ball. If, at that moment, the features of the ball (sprue, seams, dents & dings, strong side wind, etc.) are uneven around the circumference it will effect the ball's flight. That mid-course "correction" has awful consequences on the target. I am guessing that is why upping the load sometimes makes accuracy better in smoothbores - it extends the distance at which the ball passes back through the sound barrier.

 

[RussB]

Well, I got to the range nice and early this morning. Got all set-up, and started makin smoke. After about twenty rounds of fartin around (excuse my language, but that's all it amounted to) I discovered I can't get there from here. I gotta go somehere else to start. That naked round ball and me just don't see things the same way.
Anyway, I did have a grand old time with me .58 musket rifle. God, I love that rifle!
Don't know why I keep spinning my wheels with that stupid smoothbore! It's just a no-name, cheaply made, piece of steel that keeps my blood pressure up. Time for a new one, I think. Once I've got my footing on a level playing field maybe things will look a little differently. Until then I will just stick with a patched RB, and occasionaly a little shot...where it's at it's best.
Thanks for everybody's time with this project, that went nowhere.....but at least we tried. :results:
Respectfully, Russ

 

[musketman]

RussB:

Maybe it's a caliber related thing, only for the massive .69 and .75's...

Anyway, you did get some shootin in, and that's good...

Thanks for the feed-back... :thumbsup: