Prob'ly could use a rear sight.

[Birdwatcher]

Well, already worked up a shot load for dove out of my 20 guage (.62 cal.) TVM fowler, now I'm working on ball for deer and hogs.

Already plinked about 50 rounds with it total, using 100 grains FFG - dry wad - .600 ball - dry wad.

Elevation seemed to be about right, and a squad of nephews who had barely shot a gun before let alone a flinter were scoring reg'lar hits on a 30" by 30" flat surface at 100 yards.

Promising.

First formal range session... from just 25 yards, standing offhand, on paper.

The load... 80 grains FFFG, two fiber wads soaked in olive oil, .600 ball, 0.010 lubed patch, topped with dry fiber wad to hold it all in place. Single pass with a dry cleaning patch between shots.

The good news; aiming directly at the bull I put three shots into a single long ragged hole maybe .75 inches high and 1.5 inches wide

The bad news is that said ragged hole was maybe 6" right and more'n a foot low :grin:

OK, two more shots working on elevation, one shot working on windage as per the six-hole "L"-shaped group.

Thing is though, to lift the group THAT MUCH at just 25 yards I'd have to practically lift my head off of the stock while aiming.

Gonna go out again and try this same set-up with 100 grains as we used for plinking, maybe the added recoil lifts up the group I dunno.

One thought that did occur to me is that, while I could learn to finagle my aiming point relative to the barrel with this particular gun, anyone else who wished to use it (like a friend or relative) would have to do the same lengthy trial and error before THEY could shoot to their point of aim.

Likewise, I myself might forget the degree of finagling necessary to shoot to the point of aim and have to repeat the whole learning proces.

Seems like a rear sight, appropriately filed, would minimize these problems, giving a far more consistent beginning point of aim.

All thoughts welcome.

Birdwatcher

 

[George]

The load... 80 grains FFFG, two fiber wads soaked in olive oil, .600 ball, 0.010 lubed patch, topped with dry fiber wad to hold it all in place.

I load my .62 about the same for ball with one exception, your last dry wad. I don't feel anything is needed to hold my ball in place since my patch is tight enough to do that.

How tall is your front sight?

Spence

 

[rabjr]

Barrel bending time!

 

[Amikee]

What I've done is I discovered that my aiming point on centermark .62 is the point of front sight crossing with it's base. I put a white dot in that spot. Also, since I have octagon to round, the transition from oct to rd had to be right underneath that white spot. So on the last two maybe one and half inch of oct part I placed small white dots in the row looking like this (muzzle on left)

. .....

When you aim, dots on oct form a white dot also. So you just put one dot on top of the other one and have a wonderful "rear" sight. Fast aiming too. This idea came from my workplace where we carry a variety of pistols and dot on dot sights work best so far. This set up also eliminates the need of drilling, cutting, filing, gluing, etc and it's easy to use. Just need to make sure that dots on oct are exactly in the middle of the flat. Hope this helps. Good shooting!
Michael

 

[Amikee]

Forgot. I used 70gr ffg, .010 ox yoke wonder, and .595 ball, since .600 I wasn't able to get into the bore it's so damn tight.

 

[paulvallandigham]

What is the ACTUAL bore diameter, in thousandths of an inch?

What are your spent patches telling you about what is going inside the barrel when you fire a shot?

Can you borrow or buy a chronograph to find out what the Actual MV is from this gun with these loads?

If the bore is oversized, its likely that your wads are Not sealing well. The leaks of gases around the OP wad will reduce the MV and the POI substantially. You may have to go to 19 gauge wads, as I have done with my overbore "20" gauge fowler. My POI rose some 8 inches just by changing the wads. MV increased by more than 200 fps.

Most of the front sights on these kinds of guns are tall enough to allow a lot of filing to raise the POI to your POA. But, first, get the right combination of loading components working for you.

I started with a .600" diameter ball, and 70 grains of FFg Goex powder. It should have produce over 1000 fps MV. Instead I was getting only a little over 800 fps MV. My bore measured .626-.627", almost a true 19 gauge barrel( .629" nominally). 20 gauge should be .615" nominally.

Members here have reported receiving guns with barrels as small as .605"(21 gauge, nominally), which is very tight. They have had NO choice but to drop down to using the .595" balls, and some have had to order custom molds in smaller diameters (.585") to get their guns shooting up to expectations.

It looks like you have done the work to take care of your windage problems. All that is left is elevation. Wait until you are sure that your load is giving you the right MV before filing that front sight down.

I would NOT consider bending the barrel until everything else has been checked, and there is nothing else left to do. Bending a barrel with that full-length stock can present some other problems for you, altho the amount of bending is minimal.

 

[Dausener]

Barrel bending time!

Ditto. :thumbsup: It sounds scary. I was almost terrified at the thought of it but it isn't as bad or difficult as it may seems.

 

[Canerod]

Your patched ball should be tight enough to lose the dry wad altogether. I use a similar load in my TVM fowler, 75gr FFg, one OP card and the patched RB. Should have no reason to use an OS card unless you try a bare ball without a patch.

 

[Rifleman1776]

maybe the added recoil lifts up the group I dunno.

This is not generally a factor with long guns. Recoil does not move the gun until after the projectile has left the muzzle. Meaning POI is not affected. The effect is different for pistols.
As for bending the barrel. Yes, it does sound scary to me. Do check the sight for proper placement before doing anything drastic. It might not be perfectly centered on the barrel. Fixing that is much easier, and less drastic, than barrel bending.

 

[BrownBear]

I'm of two minds on this, or should I say my sight/no sight choice depends on what I'm doing. I find that the rear sight is a fine help for ball, but a sincere distraction for wing shooting. If you're launching shot at stationary targets rather than wing shooting the rear sight isn't an issue.

I use mine more with shot than ball, so I've opted to keep it clean while adding a temporary rear sight for ball shooting as needed. Short term, I just put a dab of typist's "white out" in a particular spot back near the breech and stack the front sight on that. For a sturdier yet temporary solution I mix a little coloring agent in 5-minute epoxy and put a dab of that in the same place. Heck, you could even make it bigger and shape it with a v-notch if you wanted, but I don't bother. When you're through with it, a few seconds with a torch makes it easy to pop off. The nice thing for you would be that you can adjust left/right without resorting to barrel bending or moving the front sight.


With a little experimenting it's easy to find the right spot for the rear sight, and once found, it's dirt easy to remember where it is. I still do confirmation shooting at the range before a hunt, but I'm right in placing it about 95% of the time.

I've been experimenting with something else, and so far the results are encouraging. I'm trying my hand at "instinctive" shooting with ball, much like archers and some shotgunners do. It's great fun and surprisingly accurate to a point. I suspect I could stretch that point a lot further from the muzzle if I wasn't switching back and forth between a variety of guns.

 

[Canerod]

I've been experimenting with something else, and so far the results are encouraging. I'm trying my hand at "instinctive" shooting with ball, much like archers and some shotgunners do. It's great fun and surprisingly accurate to a point. I suspect I could stretch that point a lot further from the muzzle if I wasn't switching back and forth between a variety of guns.

I've shot instinctive with my longbows for years and you are definitely on the right path to pick a particular gun and stick with it if that's how you want to shoot. I usually decide which bow I'm going to hunt with by July and don't shoot any others until hunting season is over.

 

[floyd1350]

there are lots of other options without bending a barrel that is machined and bored to be straight! i believe that is an old practice meant to fix a barrel that was NOT as straight as it could be due to the way they were made.

 

[Deadeye]

Barrel bending time.
Deadeye

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've shot instinctive with my longbows for years and you are definitely on the right path to pick a particular gun and stick with it if that's how you want to shoot. I usually decide which bow I'm going to hunt with by July and don't shoot any others until hunting season is over.

Ditto. I point a musket or shotgun the same way I do the arrow of my recurves. I don't look at the front sight or any other feature and just focus on the target and my eyes align the shaft or barrel as needed.

 

[ericb]

When I got my new Charleville last year, it had a decided tendancy to group to the left. I always shoot Musket offhand, but did shoot it a little off the bench when I first got it, and those shots seemed to be pretty much in line. Didn't think much about it (mistake - there was a clue there) and proceeded to shoot the Hell out of the thing (offhand) for a year. Groups still a little left, always, and I decided I was looking at a little Barrel Bend. When I shoot Musket I do the Instinctive/Zen thing; while I don't teally "aim" with the Barrel Band Front Sight Blade, I do use it as a reference as I take in the whole big picture. Just recently, as I brought the gun up, in one of those strobescopic eyeblink moments I saw that although the front sight was nicely aligned center of mass on the Silouhette, the Barrel actually was very slightly aligned to the left. I was habitually anchoring the Butt out on my Arm a little, which with my curved Buttplate Harper's Ferry Rifle has become the norm. Having a rear sight on the Rifle elimates any misalignment. But with the Musket, between not aligning front & rear sights, and with the misalignment so slight, I was simply too lazy/stupid/sloppy to have caught it. I brought the Butt into my shoulder just a little, and Voila, all shots now straight down the pike!

The Barrel wasn't shooting left; I was! And I was just moments away from getting out the big C-Clamp and Blocks and bending it.

Before doing the Drastic, eliminate the Simple first. If your Tube needs tweaked, than so be it. But make sure it is the Tube, and not You...

Eric

 

[majg1234]

cheek weld is critical without a rear site,on my carolina style it has a "turtle" site I do not snuggle down on it like a rifle and use the base of the site as a crosshair with the vertical part of the site bisecting the circle when I do this POI is POA anything else yields holes all over the target,using this method the gun can produce 2" groups @ 60yds 70gr FFg 600 wheel weight ball from lee mold, ox yoke wool button over powder and over ball, no patch it works for this one very well

 

[floyd1350]

thank-you eric

 

[ike]

Here is a different idea from my experience and some advise from a knowledgable back powder gunsmith. First, what is your weight of trigger pull. It maybe that you need your lock tuned. My lock actually made the cock move back before it moved forward to strike the frizzen. I shoot left handed and when I shot my .62 off of the bench it shot very well. When I shot off hand it was always to the left and low by 4" to 6". Tuned the lock so the (I am not sure of the term for the lock parts) lock released the hammer with out actually forcing the hammer to travel back as before. My groups improved. I can now get a shot group in a 6" circle at 50 yds with out a rear sight. I find that I must mount the gun on my sholder and cheek place the same with each shot to get good groups. With more practice and better trigger control I hope to get better groups. I hope this may give you another idea to solve your problem.
My goal is to take a nice doe during a special ML hunt at a local state park.

 

[tg]

It may take a bit of bending which while at it one might as well go both ways as needed, hopefully the round part of the barrel is tapered for ease of bending, I have heard of some that were not tapered,practice will also make a BIG differnce with a smoothie, good luck it will come together for you.

 

[hanshi]

Birdwatcher, I have the same TVM fowler you have. I ordered mine with a rear sight since I intended OVER 50% ball shooting with it. I had to file the rear sight down and didn't have to bend the barrel. It appears you have a good load.

The bore on mine is pretty tight as well. I wanted to use WW metal for ball but while they shot okay in bare-ball loads the (.605" actual dia) was too tight for field use even with .010" patching. I can use pure a lead ball (.600") and .010" patch for reasonable 50 yard accuracy. I bought a Tanner .590" mold to use with WW ball and thicker patch but results with that combo are , so far, inconclusive. Charge levels don't seem to make a great deal of difference; 60grns to 80grns of 3F shoot about the same. Tried 2F but results were also inconclusive. It's been a frustrating task.

From my perspective only, A rear sight is the way to go and I recommend them highly. The rear sight on my smoothbore helped my shot loads. I don't plan to wing shoot, just turkey, squirrel and rabbit is all I care about. I don't know about your particular gun but the trigger pull on mine is divine.