Proof of Proofing?

[srspicer]

Hi All,

I was curious to know, is there a standardized proofing system/standards for muskets & rifles, and is there a way to show that proof?

I was looking at a flintlock that is for sale in another state(USA). Trying not to buy a bunch of surprises. :nono:

Thanks in advance for any help :thumbsup: !

Yrsvt

Scott
Sorry, double post, mods please remove one! Thanks!

 

[rabjr]

Are you talking new or old? The US does not require proofing of gun barrels and has not for a long time. This is more a European thing.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Swampy you old dog! I can't believe it. I wrote Tripp a long post, too long in fact and sent it. It got hung up and never got delivered. when I saw the 1 reply I thoughit might have made it through, but Swamp Fox slithered through te back rails and got there first and made sure no on else did!

Anyway, Tripp do this: Call Seller ask what he's selling. Ask him what country it comes from. Ask him when it was made (circa). Post these facts and we'll go from there. A lot easier to work from specific facts than to explain the history of proof marks in different countries, different time periods, different steels, dfifferent propellants et et c les see if this goes through

 

[rabjr]

:rotf: Ooops!

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you look at the " Member Resources " section on the Index page to this forum, you will find a thread labeled, " Articles, Charts and Links". I believe you will find a Chart showing common proof marks put on European made barrels there to use as a reference.

The Greater difficulty for most buyers of old shotguns is actually SEEing the proof marks. These are generally stamped with a metal DIE into the bottom of the barrels on Shotguns, covered by the forestock from view. The stamps are so small that you often need a magnifying glass to see them well. If the barrel has rust or pitting on the bottom as a result of its long age, you may have to do a Pencil rubbing of the mark to be able to distinguish the edges of the mark from surrounding pitting, or oxide.

( Pencil Rubbing: Put a piece of paper on top of of the surface with a mark, then using the side of the pencil's lead point to lightly rub over the paper on top of the mark. The lead "bumps" into the side walls and structures in the mark, making a more easily seen "picture" of the mark on the metal, but on the paper, which you can then hold up to the light to see every detail of the mark. This is also useful to "lift" badly corroded serial numbers, letters, inspection marks, regimental marks, etc. All these numbers, letters, and marks are useful in determining the origin of the barrels, their manufacturer, and age.)

i know of NO time in the history of the USA where Proofing of civilian made barrels was required by any law, federal or state, and NO PROOFING Standards have ever been adopted in the USA. You will find 18th century guns- muskets, shotguns, and a VERY FEW rifled guns--- made in the USA, but from barrels that are imported from Europe, which may have proof marks on the barrels. In the 19th century, it was very common to import shotguns made in Europe- Belgium had a booming business, no pun intended-- where the guns were labeled by the name of an American-Based company- often the retail seller of the guns, such as hardware stores. :hmm:

 

[JV Puleo]

To the best of my knowledge, the only US proof law is the Massachusetts law of 1805. It was in effect from 1805 to about 1841. I don't know that it was repealed - more likely it simply fell out of use with the Dearborn Militia Reorganization of 1842 and the assumption of the state to arm the volunteer militia. The way it is worded, it specifically applied only to musket and pistol barrels made in Massachusetts - a very early example of legislators passing a law with ambiquous wording. Privately owned militia muskets (the only kind there were in Mass until 1842) frequently have the marks because Massachusetts, especially Worcester County, had a large gunmaking industry. Supposedly Asa Waters operated the first barrel rolling machinery in America at Millbury.

In fact, since they are almost never seen except on militia muskets, it was long assumed (incorrectly) that the marking had a military significance. It doesn't - its purely civil and the appointed "provers of firearms" are listed with the coroners and justices of the peace.

If the barrel was not made in Mass. it did apparently not need to be proofed. Thus, many guns had British proof marks or none at all. It also does not seem to have been required of barrels that had been proofed for government contracts and either sold off by the contractors (to raise operating capital) or by the armories as surplus. The only pistols known to have them are Ruggles-patent underhammers, all of which were made between 1826 and 1840. I have never seen a NE rifle with them, which is very interesting because it implies that either the letter (and not the spirit) of the law was followed or that rifle barrels were not made in Massachusetts at the time.
True fowlers almost never have the marks but that is probably because about 99% of the fowlers in use in early federal period America were English made and proved or assembled from English components.

The marks are the letters P and M (probably for Massachusetts Proof or Proved Massachusetts but never explained in the law).
Under the "P" are the initials of the "prover of firearms" and under the M is the date of the proof. These are still very commonly seen in New England. The most common initials for a "prover of firearms" are LH for Luke Harrington who lived in Millbury and clearly proved barrels from the Waters manufactory.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu will see some "Proof" markings on various military guns made over the years- put on by the arsenal to assure officers that the guns have been tested to be safe to use with the issued ammo.

But, as for civilian guns, the U.S. has never required guns to be Proofed. Congress really does NOT have the power to do so, under the Constitution of 1787.

It would be a HUGE stretch to claim the Commerce Clause authorizes Congress to pass laws requiring Proofing of privately made guns for civilian use. The " War Powers" clause obviously does not apply. The " Welfare" clause would be an even bigger "stretch" than the Commerce clause.

The closest laws I know requiring guns made in the US to pass some minimum safety standard is a law passed here in Illinois about 30 years ago requiring handguns sold in the state be made from materials that do not melt below 800 Degrees F.

I refer to this law as the MUGGERS' SAFE PRODUCTS PROTECTION ACT, as the only people who bought these cheap guns were criminals,( and very poor people who didn't know how dangerous they can be, nor how unreliable they were to even fire).

NO, the wise men and women in Springfield wanted to be sure that if our criminals threaten someone with a gun( almost always stolen and/or bought on the "black Market"), that such a gun would be constructed properly to insure reliable function, so that the muggers can shoot their victims to insure their escape!

Why, if their gun failed to fire, the victims might just attack the MUGGERS, and hurt them. We can't have victims taking the "Law into their own hands",now, can we??? That is what we pay Police officers all that money to do.

I have not found any other state that has passed so assinine a law as this one. Its still on the books, BTW. :hmm: :surrender: :blah: :rotf: :youcrazy: :thumbsup:

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Interesting and informative post, JV. Thank you!

 

[Marc Adamchek]

EXTREMELY interesting information, especially to a born and bred Mass boy. Many, many thanks for posting this, PV!

 

[JV Puleo]

Glad to help. If you keep looking you'll start finding them all over the place. They aren't rare and are usually about the most inexpensive original muskets you can buy... There is one on gunboards right now which, last time I looked, was under $300 and had its original bayonet.

There was an article in Man at Arms about the Mass proof law many years ago.

 

[rabjr]

Interesting, It's been a while since I read my book on "The Providence Tool Co." but I remember them having a building out back that was big enough to "Proof" If I remember right 20 barrels at a time. I seem to remember it being Civil war contract Springfield rifles but it may have been later when they switched over from the original Peabody to the Britsh version Martini/Henry's, the proofing may have been to satisfy the British requirments? I need to dig that book up again but there was some proofing going on here in Providence at one time.

 

[JV Puleo]

Swampy,

You're quite right about that. Probably in all cases, the CW rifle muskets and the Peabodys and Peabody-Martinis. The only difference is that it was either done by the Federal government on contract arms and by the company for their customer... not as not aspect of civil law.

 

[rabjr]

Ok, funny how that stuck in my head and I remembered that for some reason, they had a special building out back where they proofed so many barrels at once.

 

[srspicer]

Thanks for all of the responses/info!

Now, how about the new Brown Besses that are being made in India? ( I think its India) Someone from our unit was contemplating purchasing one. They are very inexpensive, I think around $500.00! I warned him off because I have not heard enough feed back about such a new company. ( they also have a tendency to look 'farby'). Anyone have experience with these?

Thanks again.

Scott