Pyrodex "Lag" In 12GA Capper

[damron]

I went out without my box with FF black.All i had was Pyro RS in the misc box a buddy gave me.With 80-110g in a 12ga New Englander with .690 ball and denim and ticking patches it was a very slow ignition.I shot today with Goex FF and ignition was instantaneous.i have shot Pyro in 54's and 50's before and never had this problem.is is related to the bore size possibly?

George

 

[rafterob]

If the Pyro is old and had been opened (which sounds like the case), it can be affected by moisture. It could just be a matter of the powder not getting all the way down into the ignition chamber. Magnum caps usually solve the delay issue with pyrodex. I never had any problem with the regular caps though.

 

[Billnpatti]

I used to shoot Pyrodex in my caplock years ago but now shoot only black powder. Anyway, I never had an ignition problem with Pyrodex in a caplock that wasn't related to a fouling problem in my rifle. You must remember that after opening, Pyrodex has a shelf life of only about 1 year even when it is kept closed up and stored in a cool dry place. I don't know if it is related to moisture or oxygen but after about a year, you will notice a change in MV and POI. Even so, I never experienced an ignition problem in a clean caplock with old Pyrodex. I'd look at your shotgun to see if there isn't a problem lurking within, fouling being the most likely culprit. Check the hole in your nipples to be sure that they are completely open. Pyrodex is a bit harder to ignite and needs all of the exposure to the flame from the cap to ignite reliably. If after this, you still have ignition problems with it, just sprinkle it on the ground and forget it. Yes, sprinkling it around on your yard is a safe way to get rid of old powder of any kind, the moisture in the ground deactivates it almost instantly. Just don't pour it in a pile, sprinkle it around and forget it. It won't hurt your grass either.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I believe that the New Englander has the standard T.C. patent-breech with a chamber of ~.35" diameter. I've never shot Pyrodex, but many on these forums have reported problems with the large granules of RS often bridging on patent-breech chambers and not filling them. One thing that can help is to slap the side of the gun near the breech a few times, after you pour the powder but before you ram the wads or PRB. This will usually shake the powder enough to get it to fill the breech. This is pretty much mandatory with the very small chambers on many Pedersoli firelocks, even with 3Fg black powder. Another alternative often cited for those who prefer to (or have to) use Pyrodex is to switch to Pyro P, the 3Fg-equivalent with notably smaller granules.

Good lick,
Joel

 

[cascadeflint]

I have looked at pyrodex ignition about 15 years ago with a piezoelectric transducer and an oscilloscope when fired with a #11 cap on an in-line breech. IT IGNITES SLOW and the rate of burn is slower than BP. Once I started looking for a flaw, I noticed I could actually hear the cap crack before the boom when I fired my TC sidelock with pyrodex. When I switched to BP all I heard is boom. The bottom line is its hard to ignite, thats why is "less dangerous" than BP. So if anything is a little small in your ignition path it will ignite hard. With a 5 grain BP helper, Pyro burns and ignites fine but that won't help you if its all you have. I don't know if the newer stuff is any better but since my initial tests I have only shot geox. When I shoot my Cap n Ball next to someone shooting substitute I also hear a Boom vs a Boooooom if thats any sort of quantitative measurement!

 

[drstrangelove]

I recently had FTF with 777 on the Pedersoli... Tried two caps with a pin cleaning of the nipple in between attempts. Didn't want to pull the column, so I unscrewed the nipple and topped off the space beneath with more 777. Boom! I agree real BP ignites with less delay, but cleanup sucks and the white cloud messes up the second shot on a going away bird. Prepriming with 5g of real BP makes a lot of sense if using non BP alternatives. Should cut down on the delay considerably.

 

[damron]

my Pyro was a newer can.I borrowed an unopened can and tried it again to make sure my free can wasn't "wet".With musket and #11 cap it went fuu...boom.With Goex FF it went BOOOOOM.

George

 

[aeatwood]

Actually, if you used a lubed felt or cushion wad, you should only be cleaning the fouling from the last shot when you get home. Pop the wedge, pull the nipple, stick the breech in a bucket of tap water, and run a brush/jag about 5 passes. Dry w/ 5-6 dry patches, squirt in some wd-40, and put the nipple back in.

I generally run a dry patch down the next day, then a patch soaked in olive oil. The gun should be good whether it is packed away for a week or a year.

Alan

 

[Britsmoothy]

If you gents just drilled your nipples out to.040" or 1mm then this hard to ignite fuel will fire alot quicker. I know because it is the only fuel I can use and so have experimented to make it work good.

All my guns have had this treatment, I have no rebounding hammer issues and never hear the cap first!

Brits.

 

[paulvallandigham]

But, does this help ignition because it lets more fire get to the powder, faster( Your thesis), OR because the larger hole in the nipple allows more air to escape thru the nipple, as you are pushing the ball down the barrel, and shoving air in front of it, to either go thru the powder charge and into the flash channel, allowing powder to go with the air to the base of your nipple, more freely?

Next time you load one of your guns, STOP. Now remove the nipple and look into the bolster to see how much powder is located right under the bottom of the nipple. Then go ahead and replace the nipple. The next time you replace a nipple with a new factory nipple, before drilling it out, do the same test. Let us know what you find, Please.

I only have a percussion CVA DBL shotgun at this time. The flash channel goes directly to the breech of the barrel, so there are no right angled corners to negotiate as found on many of the patent breech guns. Black Powder(Goex 2Fg) flows easily up the channel, so my gun is not a good test subject- or I would do the test myself! :hatsoff: :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup:

Thanks. :v

 

[Earle Varney]

My brother and I recently had some of the same issues with clean shot (now called Jim Shockey's Gold). It was an old open can. Using BP solved the problem.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Pyrodex is simply hard to ignite. Well known. Not a lot to talk about.
For me, this is a bp game. Conversation starts and stops there, IMHO.

 

[damron]

Pyrodex is simply hard to ignite. Well known. Not a lot to talk about.
For me, this is a bp game. Conversation starts and stops there, IMHO.

#1-The question was was it specific to my 12ga as i hadn't had as much problems before in other smaller calibers.

#2 I know some here are "purists" and live on the land dont drive cars or use computers and shoot only original antique guns. Others do it for fun and shoot replica guns and sometimes use blackpowder replacements.

IMHO

 

[Rifleman1776]

#2 I know some here are "purists" and live on the land dont drive cars or use computers and shoot only original antique guns. Others do it for fun and shoot replica guns and sometimes use blackpowder replacements.

I'm somewhere in the middle ground on all that. I used to be pretty snobbish in opposition to the use of factory made replica guns. But, even though I an not crazy about them I understand they are an entry level way for folks to start in the ml game. And, some, like the TC 'hawken' have become almost iconic.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

We can all agree that Pyrodex is harder to ignite than is BP, that is exactly the reason Pyrodex was developed, harder to ignite equals safer to ship and store, or at least that is the thinking of those who set the regulations.
Harder to ignite means that little details which do no noticeable harm with BP make for hang fires or misfires with Pyrodex. It is more critical to flush out the small channel between nipple and powder chamber and to get that totally clean and dry. The larger nipple hole as mentioned by Britsmoothy may help. Also PaulV mentioned the large kernel size of RS Pyro prevents the powder from flowing into the flash channel to reach the bottom of the nipple, so it's farther from the cap. The heat and force of an explosion diminishes with the cube of the distance, if the nearest granule is twice as far away it gets hit with only 1/8 as much heat and pressure. I have enlarged the flash channel in several Pedersoli doubles and it certainly did improve ignition of Pyrodex but it is tricky to do without damaging the nipple threads. An easy solution is to use the smaller granulated Pyrodex P instead of RS.
Anyhow, The answer is NO, it is not just your gun, Pyrodex can be a bit troublesome in many guns and for many shooters. One can make it work if they have to, it just takes a bit more care and attention to details.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sorry Paul for the late reply.

I distinctly remember removing the nipples to inspect for powder. The Pedersoli doubles would always have powder there before and after nipple modification(Pyrodex).

My Enfield how ever would not have any grains present! But after nipple modification and still no grains present works 100%.

Believe me men, if I could readily get black I would only use it!

Brits.

 

[Darto]

In a State where we only may stock 1 lb. BP, I used the hint on the Hogdon website: Use 5 grains of FFFFg first then add the Pyrodex (minus 5 grains to keep total charge the same).

It speeds up Pyrodex ignition in my experience.

 

[Rifleman1776]

We can all agree that Pyrodex is harder to ignite than is BP, that is exactly the reason Pyrodex was developed, harder to ignite equals safer to ship and store, or at least that is the thinking of those who set the regulations.

No, we cannot all agree on this point. Pyrodex was developed because of periodic bp shortages at the time. It was also simply a free enterprise move to capture some of the ml market. It was originally promoted to "not corrode like black powder". I knew Dan Pawlak, fine person but also a wise businessman. I was a tester for Pyrodex before it came on the market. My review was quite brief. It was near impossible to ignite. I have never used it since.

 

[Rifleman1776]

We can all agree that Pyrodex is harder to ignite than is BP, that is exactly the reason Pyrodex was developed, harder to ignite equals safer to ship and store, or at least that is the thinking of those who set the regulations.

No, we cannot all agree on this point. Pyrodex was developed because of periodic bp shortages at the time. It was also simply a free enterprise move to capture some of the ml market. It was originally promoted to "not corrode like black powder". I knew Dan Pawlak, fine person but also a wise businessman. I was a tester for Pyrodex before it came on the market. My review was quite brief. It was near impossible to ignite. I have never used it since.

 

[damron]

i ran into lag issues this weekend with a .62 smoothie also.So far i only have lag in larger smooth bores.I wonder if the shorter powder column in realtion to bore diameter is the culprit?

George