Question about a PC knife

[50cal.cliff]

I am in the process of making a new roach belly style knife and as I began to get ready to grind the edge onto the blade a thought struck me.

Would a PC knife be more likely to have a flat grind or a hollow grind?

My immediate thought was a flat grind. But the old pedal style water wheels would have put a hollow grind on it. I am not sure exactly when those type of wheels where in use but I know the old blacksmith in my hometown used one. So now back to the question at hand.

Would a PC knife be more likely to have a flat grind or a hollow grind?

Anyone got any thoughts or documentation on the subject?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Depends on the "Period" you are trying to portray, and whether the knife you are making is to represent one made by hand, or by early machines. The older the period, the more likely you will see a "Flat" grind. The "cheaper" the knife, the more likely you will see flat grinds.

Hollow Grinds became cost effective after the beginning of the Industrial Age, where mechanical guides were used to control how much and WHERE metal was removed from a blade. However, with sword making, Hollow grinding appears many centuries ago in some blades. Even in the Bronze Age, you find "blood grooves" that are fairly wide, and give rise to what we now know as "hollow ground" blades.

 

[LRB]

Flat or very slightly convex would be what you're after Cliff. If you are thinking of the trade types, these would still have been forged then cleaned up and detailed on the water wheels which were powered by water and not a pedal. Some of these wheels were very large in diameter, very heavy, and more than a few grinders were killed or maimed when they occasionally broke. If made by a colonial smith, very likely forged and draw filed. Chuck Burrows could tell you more about it.

 

[necchi]

Good answer Wick E.
Hollow ground if european trade, flat if early state side (maybe)(maybe not if the man hade a wheel)

The differance is about two months steady use. If you know hollow ground and high carbon steel you might as well hollow gind if ya can and sell it, then let nature take it's course.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Thanks everyone for the answers! Just a thought that popped into my head and thought I would throw it out there for discussion!
I would had to have said flat ground if asked but that would have been my opinon for what I know about the time period!

 

[shortbow]

Very interesting thread, thanks very much for asking and for the answers. I always thought of the knives of the later fur trade period anyway of being flat as a pancake. Figured razors aside, the hollow grind was a more modern development. Good stuff to know. :hatsoff:

 

[LaBonte]

Very interesting thread, thanks very much for asking and for the answers. I always thought of the knives of the later fur trade period anyway of being flat as a pancake. Figured razors aside, the hollow grind was a more modern development. Good stuff to know. :hatsoff:

A virtual flat grind is what you want. While it's true that trade blades were ground on wheels, thus giving the idea that they would be hollow ground, the majority of such wheels were 5-6 feet in diameter. Grinding a blade horizontally on such a stone leaves only a very slight hollow if any at all (myself and some other makers have had platens built for our modern grinders to match the curve of the large period wheels), and also there are period images showing the blades being ground vertically on the wheel making them flat ground. The bevels were first forged in anyway and then the blades were normally only lightly ground.
My comments are based on examining and taking measurements on a couple of hundred pre-1850 originals - both trade types i.e. butchers and scalpers, as well as period Bowies.

Hollow grinding on razors even did not become common until the mid-1800's.

 

[shortbow]

Thanks L.B. 'Nother question which flows from this discussion is, on the mass-produced blades of the one or two hundred years preceding the mid-nineteenth century, were trip hammers of any kind used or were they all hand forged by a smith with a hand hammer?

 

[LaBonte]

Tilt hammers, both water and steam powered were widely used in making knife blades at least from the early to mid 1700's on by the English cutlers Steam power expanded the knife industry considerably, but one also must take into consideration the effect of the various guilds on who made what and how - generally in England at the time no one person made all of a knife. Although the subject is still debated, there is some pretty good evidence for the knife blades to have been drop forged using dies - this would have simplified manufacturing quite a bit, thus making the knives easier and cheaper to produce. Scissors were definitely made using forming dies and large tilt hammers.
Sheffield, the largest English knife manufacturing center up until at least WW 1, was serendipitously located where there was a good water source along with plenty of wood for making charcoal, used for forging but also for making steel via the cementation process, which produced blister steel. Blister steel was the "mother" steel that was used as is but also was the base for higher quality steels - i.e. the shear steel process starting in the late 1600's, and after 1745 for making cast aka crucible steel via the Huntsman process. The Huntsman process also used the local Sheffield high temp clay for making the crucibles, a clay which was not found in larger amounts elsewhere.
In America the Russell Green River Knife works was set up in that area in the 1830's due in large to the water source for running their tilt hammers and steam engines.

There's a book available on Line - The Circle of Mechanical Arts dated 1813 that that has a chapter on making knives and other cutlery http://books.google.com/books?id=6_oGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Also some of Perret's 1787 tome, L'Art du Coutelier (The Art of the Cutler), is available on line and discusses some of the methods used including making pattern welded Damascus and layered blades. Here's a link with the chapters listed - http://www.knife-expert.com/perr-con.txt

Diderot's Encyclopedia also offers info on French knife making, including images showing human powered polishing wheels and much other equipment.

Water power as well as human/animal power was widely used in arms manufacturing for a very long time, at least as far back as the late Middle Ages.

Table knives and others with forged "integral" bolsters, were usually made in a sort of semi-sand which method with the steel blade being welded to the wrought iron bolster and tang. The vertical weld line can be quite clearly seen abut a 1/2" or so forward of the bolster in this image of an 18th Century table knife

 

[50cal.cliff]

See I do sometimes ask pertinent questions! :shocked2: I was fairly sure what the answer was going to be but I sure learned a lot by asking the question. My thanks to all who offered information on this subject. :bow:

I look at it this way once you have learned this type of information it is invaluable to pass it on too others.
Because if you take it with you it may be lost forever! I know there are books about it but most kids won't even know what a book is in a few years, let alone open one and actually sit down and read it!

I sometimes wonder what my grandkids will not know about this old world when they get grown.
So many things have changed since I was a kid and these kids today will never know of such information if someone doesn’t take the time to fill them in. OK enough of this I guess I am just feeling old this morning! :grin:

 

[crockett]

LaBonte: someone told me the barstock to make knives is post-1840, that forging was used pre-1840. And, that most forged blades have a continual taper from shoulder to tip which always seemed to me applied more to a thick knife, the thin knives look like they have an even thickness to me, even if forged. IAE- any comments welcomed as always.
I was also told trip hammers date back to the middle ages but in Sheffield the forging was done in small shops, often by hand. If so, did these small shops get steel already in a bar type shape from a larger operation?

 

[LRB]

Are we talking trade knives, or just knives in general? Normally, but not always, a tapered tang is a clue to being forged. A uniform thickness in the tang, is an indication of barstock stock removal, or drop forging. However some trade knives of the 18th c. had a uniform thickness of tang, though they might have been hand forged. Same thing with a distal tapered blade, which is a good idea, whether forged or stock removal. With a typical, I repeat, typical, scalper, of the 18th c., it will have both tapers. Apparently not all of the English tangs were tapered, but most seem to have been early on. On an American forged smith made knife, it will almost always be tapered both directions. Much of all of this changed in the 19th c., except for the independant smith. As far as I know shear steel was purchased in bars from the start. Maybe not uniform, but still as bars.

 

[gmarc]

Most common grinds were flat and cannel/convex. These grinds maintain a tougher edge profile. Hollow ground straight razors were not really common until after 1870. Prior to that the wedge-ground blades were most common on razors.

Really old sword grooves were most often laid in (hand-forged) with top & bottom fullering tools. On civil war swords they were both forged (power hammer) and rolled in. The term "hollow-ground"does not refer to fullers on the mid-section of blades.

My personal fave is a good flat grind on PC knives

 

[shortbow]

Wow and wow, what a great overview of the subject.

LaBonte, you've obviously done some serious research on the subject.

Just one more question: I assume that the modern Green Rivers are role forged while the originals were drop forged. Is this right?

 

[LaBonte]

Wow and wow, what a great overview of the subject.

LaBonte, you've obviously done some serious research on the subject.

Just one more question: I assume that the modern Green Rivers are role forged while the originals were drop forged. Is this right?

I really don't know for sure but drop forging coud still be used - you might contact the Russell Co, they are pretty good about answering questions.

 

[LaBonte]

LaBonte: someone told me the barstock to make knives is post-1840, that forging was used pre-1840. And, that most forged blades have a continual taper from shoulder to tip which always seemed to me applied more to a thick knife, the thin knives look like they have an even thickness to me, even if forged. IAE- any comments welcomed as always.
I was also told trip hammers date back to the middle ages but in Sheffield the forging was done in small shops, often by hand. If so, did these small shops get steel already in a bar type shape from a larger operation?

Not sure why some one would say that since all steel was made at the time from wrought iron bar stock to begin with - IIRC the WI stock was 1/2" x 4" x 20' - this was then stacked and then "cooked" for several days to make blister steel. Also rolling mills IIRC were being used by the end of the 1700's. On the other hand a forged blade (both drop and hand) can be made from round stock. Also the tapers can be put in at both ends with a die with one big smack.

As for tilt hammers (trip hammers are technically a later and usually smaller version) being used in Sheffield - yes most undoubtedly they were used since there are several still in existence in the area - see the www.tilthammer.com site for a bit more info......

As for small shops vs big shops - the whole process for most English made knives of any type was again one of several people making the knives. In the period before steam the bigger shops sort of monopolized the business due to the use of water power only - Sheffield is situated in area of 4 or 5 rivers. Over time canals were built and then later steam power broke the back so to speak of the bigger factories at least in part.
From what I understand the steel was made by the larger factories and was then turned into blanks via drop forging. Depending on place and time these were then sent to the grinders, then the polishers, then the handle makers - these were at times anyway separate guilds. At times they were apparently worked on by individuals in small shops, but there is also plenty of evidence of larger factories - for instance there are images showing the factories with lines of grind stones, etc., but the ones I have collected showing this are of a later period.

Most knives were made much like gun locks in the period - for instance the Boulton works at one time had a village contiguous to their foundry in which lock filers lived and worked - the same thing occurred in places like Birmingham, England as well. The parts were forged at the foundry then sent to the filers for final shaping and fitting. But again it would depend on when and where.

As for forging versus stock removal alone - everything I've every read from period sources has stated they were forged first, heat treated and, then ground, and that methodolgy was apparently maintained up until at least WW 1.
A modern example of the forging then grinding are the Old Hickory knives made by Ontario Knife works, which by the way are not tapered through the tang nor do they have a distal taper even though forged .

For a good overview of period knives check out the Fur Trade Sketchboook which has scale drawings showing both side views as well as edge views - IIRC in every case they show a distal taper and most also show either full tapered or partially tapered tangs and that goes hand in hand with the blades I've handled.

 

[crockett]

LaBonte: Thanks for the good information. The idea of "hand forging only" was told me by a nationally known guy that I won't name. Goes to show about some info.
In any event. Blister steel, as I understand it was sort of a thick case harden iron. Shear steel was pieces of blister steel forge welded together. What I can't figure is how shear differs from Damascus- sounds like the same stuff. Was Damsacus hammered out, folded over, etc to create a lot more layers? Cast steel was the exterior filing of blister steel- that had the carbon in it- remelted and cast so the carbon was evenly distributed throughout the metal/steel. Is that correct?
In a small shop- did the cutler buy the steel from a bigger operation? If so, how was this steel shaped? bar or round? Up to now I was not sure if the small shops made their own steel or got it from someone else. I was aware that the hafting- or putting on of handles- was sub-contracted out.
And, I was told by someone in Sheffield that a lot of the trade knife business was farmed out. For example- Benjamin Fenton- was he a cutler or did he just get orders and then contract out all the work. This came up out of a conversation I had about the stamp marks of a cutler being different- I couldn't figure it out. The person in Sheffield told me that most of the small shops had stamps for all the various major outfits so if they got a sub-contractor job they could do the whole work- for example- make some scalpers and stamp them with a Fenton stamp, then later make some butcher knives and stamp them with a Wilson stamp.
This might explain Nowill. The current President (Jack Adams?) insists they were making knives during the fur trade but try to find one- maybe they did all the work under someone else's name.
In any event, any comments most appreciated. Thanks.

 

[shortbow]

Thanks a lot, Chuck, and everybody. I think this has been the most educational thread I've yet read on MLF. :hatsoff: