Question about ignition time?

[roundball]

Yes, I don't know who makes TC's redesigned vent liners but with them installed and some Goex powder, it's like shooting a .30-30.

The inside is heavily coned of course, then there's a thin .020"-.030" wall in the middle with a large .075" hole in it.

Then the outside has a hex wrench design which serves as a huge cone out there as well...a 45 degree flare tapers from the very outside edge of the liner in towards the large hex shaped well, then at the bottom of the hex well, there's another 45 degree taper in to the hole itself.

Ignition seems instantaneous and the design apparently makes them self cleaning as I never use a vent pick, never.

(1/4x28 stainless steel, two in a blisterpac for $4.95)

 

[Stumpkiller]

I could sure drill it out, but don't those people know how to make a good vent liner?

From all accounts it is the best production liner. But . . . they have to produce a liner not knowing what it will be installed on. Rather than make a variety, they sell it with a minimal hole; so the smith or end user can open it to suit. It's always easier to remove metal than put it back.

Makes sense to me.

There's probably some secret gunsmith ratio for vent size to caliber to flint width to pan volume to trigger length or whatever. I'm not sure, but I believe a vent liner was originally a repair item (some of the fine British guns use platinum liners - so I guess those were as created). I've seen original flint vents formed with no vent liner, but a plug on the OPPOSITE barrel flat where a bit was used to drill a cone into the backside of the vent, and then that offside hole is plugged with a threaded insert - possibly also serving as a pressure relief blowout plug. This system allows the vent to be tapered inside and a chisel-fine wall thickness for the flash-to-charge gap.

 

[RussB]

RussB: That is all depending on the individual & what they like. I probably have a dozen or so flintlocks here & I doubt if any of them have any less than a 5/64" dia vent in it, unless it be a lil 32 cal or something like that.

Birddog...Thanks for the kind and timely reply.
Like most everybody else, I just want a "bang"....I'm not even sure if the quickness of that "bang" is as important now as I thought it was when I first started shootin rocklocks.
BTW, I also use the 3 gr powder dispenser from TOTW, and with FFFFg I get lots of flash when I touch it off, it just appears to not be getting through the hole everytime... perhaps, maybe,????
I played a bit with mine yesterday evening, and I do have a .0625 hole, the best I could measure with a #54 drill bit. I think I should address some of the other problems you've mentioned, and intend to do so in the next couple of days.
Rain, the worst rain we've ever had in August, and badly needed, has kept me off the range for the past few days. Things are looking better starting today so I will get to try some of the other stuff you've mentioned.
Thanks again, Russ

 

[Claude Mathis]

This was during the Mexican war. That would have been a bad time to have a flash-in-the-pan - no vent liners on those issue muskets to my knowledge & indeed, it might have been a very old gun at that.

I don't build guns - I'm only the messenger, so don't shoot me if you disagree. eace:

Caywood Guns says this about liners...

Touch-hole liners; faster ignition or time bomb?

 

[RussB]

Wow! Okay....now what?

 

Caywood builds a good gun, an excellent gun, but they do have their opinions. They dislike vent liners very much and don't mind saying so. They also make every gun they produce from maple and shoot an impregnated finish into the wood under preasure.

Other major builders use vent liners, including Jim Chambers who produces the white lightening liner, along with Siler locks and The Chambers Gunbuilders Kits. (yes fellows there are kits out there that start at twice the price of a finished GPR!)

Vent liners and touch hole diameters are one of those variables that shooters and builders will argue over until we are no longer allowed to shoot.

Each gun has different requirements. Build your gun to meet those requirements.

:m2c:

 

[roundball]

:what:
IMHO, that sounds a little bit like a self serving, sour grapes, marketing attitude to me.
Even little old Thompson Center Arms has used vent liners in their flintlocks since the 70's...unless it's been the country's best kept secret, I've never heard of a problem with them...plus, for what it's worth, I've personally fired about a thousand shots through each of three different rifles (vent liners) and no indications of any problems yet...seems like we would have heard something in the 35 years since they've been making/selling them
:m2c:

 

[Claude Mathis]

...seems like we would have heard something in the 35 years since they've been making/selling them
:m2c:

That's what I thought. You'd think they would have to have some kind of evidence (examples) before making a statement like that? ::

 

[roundball]

If it's ever happened somewhere at all, I wonder if it was due to liners being installed somewhat permanently and left there, corrosion started and weakened the threaded areas, and it finally blew out...I clean & lube mine after every shoot, reinstall them only finger tight.

 

I have never heard of a vent blowing out, only wearing out. I don't know any who shoot without vent liners as they have seemed to be perfect in delivering the best ingnition. White Lightening liners seem to be the best.
: I don't know the outfit quoted above - but don't believe their advrtizement against vent liners. Properly installed vent liners, especially the steel White Lightening liners, given proper barrel steel thickness, are much stronger than most nipple seats. THESE are suspect as most aren't installed correctly, using the double seat system as 'should' be used on breechs.
; I have never seen an original barrel coned from the outside - guess I haven't seen many original flint guns. Most of those I've looked over, have been muskets, which almost all had vents ABOVE the table, and most were badly worn from years of constant use. I do know that the White Lightening liners give much better ignition than guns without, as well as the liners that have slots or allen screw holes on their surfaces, which also look ridiculous- to me. I am of the opinion that liners which are removed often will wear the threads "over time", due to constant abrasion from fouling. They will get looser over time and are suspect as to safety - in my opinion. I put a liner in, it stays until worn out. It is then replaced. There is never any fouing in the threads to corrode & the threads are perfect - forever.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have seen "reamed out" vents. Some people get these lovely, forged vent picks. About 1/8" on the sides and square shafted. A few honking good twists and turns with one of them and you've got you a big 'ol vent.

That's why I prefer a vent feather. If it's all caked up - then I pull out a metal vent pick (Thorn Apple and Honey Locust thorns work great, too)

 

[roundball]

Don't understand it...I never, ever get that...

Maybe it's because the patent breech design stops the jag about an inch above the vent and keeps it from pushing crud down around the vent area?

 

[Stumpkiller]

I bet that's the case. I had a T/C Hawken that stayed clear (but well flashed on the barrel) and that had the restricted "Patent" breech. Probably just enough moisture gets around the vent with a unpatented breech (?) to lead to it caking up some. I just have the habit of plugging with a feather after I wipe the pan and before I reload and that keeps things clear. If I'm planning on wiping I don't poke it in until after the wipe.

 

[LRB]

I treat my vent liner as does roundball. In 6 yrs. of much shooting, I see no wear or any changes in the threads. I too grease it well and screw it down just finger tight. I use the stainless vents, 1/4"x 28 with the screwdriver slot and tapered shoulder, that Dixie offers, but open up and deepen the cone and also cone it outside to the depth of the slot leaving maybe an .030 fire channel of 1/16" diameter. This gives me instantaneous ignition that I can hardly tell from a cap gun, Yuck. One point often overlooked by those that believe removing and cleaning the liner promotes dangerous wear to the threads, and are dangerous in general, what about caplock nipples? With the tiny opening in a nipple, pressures are bound to be a little higher. As long as the liner is properly installed and cared for, I can see no problem. Althogh I have heard of nipples blowing out, This is nearly always due to thread damage or the wrong thread for the hole, or some other logical explanation. Vent liners may not be PC, but they sure do help for fast and dependable ignition, and this is one non PC thing I can live with. I also do not find them ugly.

 

[kentucky bucky]

Hey Daryl,

Great post! I just love it when you guys "shoot the bull".
Let's hear a collective GROANING.

I couldn't resist..... :sorry:

 

O.K. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooooan. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

 

[Herb]

I E-mailed Jim Chambers with my ignition problem. He said the White Lightnin' vent liner is made with that small hole because some shooters want it that small. Said that the Bevel Brothers had tested for size of flash hole in their (I presume chunk guns) and found best accuracy with small holes, less than 1/16 (.0625) inch. He advised me to drill mine out to 1/16 inch. So I'll do that and run this test again. Take a week or so, but I'll get back to Jim and here with my results. But, tell me: how do you know you've got a cone inside that liner, instead of caked fouling with a hole through it? Does anyone try to clean that inside cone, and if so, how do you do it? I've enjoyed all your comments.

 

The hollowed out 'cone' in the liner doesn't seem to fill with powder fouling for a day's shooting. If it doesn, I havne't found ingition speed to suffer.
: I removed a patent breech plug after the owner had done a LOT of shooting, and found a tiny hole, wandering from the front-end of the plug, back to the nipple seat, through a solid wall of fouling. This was from a barrel that was swabbed with Hoppe's #9 plus, not cleaned in a bucket of water.
: We pulled it just to see what was happening inside, as the owner couldn't get it to go off regularly, but hadn't had the problem until switching to hoppe's from flushing, for cleaning.

 

[barbie]

Herb,
If you're concerned about cleaning the liner itself, have you tried using a flush kit? TOTW sells one specifically for our White Lightenin' liners on page 401 of thier catalog.

 

[Herb]

Thanks, Barbie. I'll consider that flushing kit. But I think I'll continue to shoot this rifle and see if I find a change in ignition. First, let me aplogize to Jim and you for cussing out that small liner hole. I figured that if it was made that way, it should work. Of course, there are no instructions with it. I have installed liners and drilled flash holes for 12 - 15 rifles, and did not want to change this without a very good reason. Jim advised me to drill it out to 1/16 inch (.0625), and I did that. I also countersunk a shallow hole 1/8" in diameter over the flash hole. Went back to my range and shot 35 shots of 7 different patch and lube combinations and had only 3 flashes in the pan. The ignition was instantaneous. I base this on maybe 200 shots through that drilled hole before the White Lightnin' liner. Also, the average extreme velocity spread changed from 58 fps for 8 groups of 55 shots down to 40 fps for 6 groups of 35 shots. This is probably due to my not wiping the barrel between shots but just dampening the (dry pre-lubed) patch with alcohol before loading. One of these test combinations had 5 shots in 1.2 inches extreme spread at 50 yards rest (first shot with a change in loading being out of the group) and the next four in 0.375 inches on centers. That is one fat hole the size of my thumbnail. So Barbie and Jim, my apologies again to you and I repeat that I am very impressed with the instantaneous ignition with the White Lightnin' liner.