Question about self priming and unreliable ignition.

[Rebel bull]

while a fair number of my fellow posters all want to blame the patent breech it's probably not totally the culprit. I own several of each and had just as much of your problems with each one. being new to this and not having any local help or no internet to consult I approached it just like trouble shooting any of the machines at work as a mechanic. The first thing was to pull the vent and make sure the channel was as large as it could be and still preserve the threads for the liner. then with a long ball burr on a dremel tool i worked on the inside corner of the flash channel of the patent breech making it not quite so sharp a angle. then I polished the inside of the liner and opened the cone and dished the pan side of it. These suggestions are if you have a t/c type patent breech (all of the snail mass produced hawkin type are of this style, or the cva style ) if you have a just vented barrel then you just need to look at the vent liner. to verify that its the liner pull the liner and install a plug 9 if you don't have a screw of the proper size wrap a couple turns of tape around your barrel pour your measure of powder down the barrel and seat it with out a ball now remove the tape and look at the powder is it all the way up to the outside ? if not you have found your problem and you may have to thump the butt on the ground before seating the ball some have to "pound" the lock with their fist after dumping the powder. remember that mas produced guns are just as good as any custom gun made or there wouldn't be so many of them around. If you haven't already done so check out Friendship there are lots of experts to be found there, but be aware of any advice that starts with its junk, get rid of it, buy only ******* brand !

 

[RobertIN]

This all makes sense.


Can you provide a picture?

Even if you can't, I have a thought or two,,, but I'm not one of these self declared experts, but I am trying to respond logically to what you actually wrote.
As of now I am thinking that this powder is not only not the problem, in my mind it may be a good thing. I was unaware of your patent breach,,, they suck. Powder coming from the vent into the pan means powder is getting into the patent breach, this is a good thing and is often a problem with that breach. But could also be a case of this being the only powder to get into the patent breach.
I leave my gun charged between hints with the vent plugged. When I pull the plug I close the hammer and tilt the gun lock down and have the side plate a tap, I want to see a few kernels of powder in the pan. This tells me the powder is at the vent and probably still dry.


"Malfunction", singular.
Is this the only, though highly unfortunate, time this has happened?
Does it happen occasionally at the range or often?

Some have suggested switching to 2f. It might work, you'll probably need 5 to 10 grains more than your 3f load for similar/equal performance. But, you may also have more trouble getting it into the patent breach, and you may get more fouling.

My advice,,, which is worth less than you are paying for it,,,, but may still cost you money ?
Forget the vent/liner.
Buy, beg, borrow, or,,,,,,,,, trade for, a gun without that patent breach.

I don't have any photos unfortunately. If I had to guess, it was probably spitting a grain or two into the pan it looked like a bit less than what my spring loaded primer thingy spits out.

I have a toothpick stuck in the right now, I'm home for lunch before going into the woods. During loading this morning I had the toothpick in, dumped my main charge, and aggressively thumped the butt into the grass to settle the powder into the breach, maybe that'll help. It's terribly difficult to get way down in there to clean it out all of the way which could also be a part of my headache.

This happened on occasion during sight in and plinking at the farm.

I'm waiting for my eCheck to clear into the sellers account , then I have a Kibler Colonial heading my way so I can hang the Traditions on the wall and retire it from hunting.

 

[RobertIN]

while a fair number of my fellow posters all want to blame the patent breech it's probably not totally the culprit. I own several of each and had just as much of your problems with each one. being new to this and not having any local help or no internet to consult I approached it just like trouble shooting any of the machines at work as a mechanic. The first thing was to pull the vent and make sure the channel was as large as it could be and still preserve the threads for the liner. then with a long ball burr on a dremel tool i worked on the inside corner of the flash channel of the patent breech making it not quite so sharp a angle. then I polished the inside of the liner and opened the cone and dished the pan side of it. These suggestions are if you have a t/c type patent breech (all of the snail mass produced hawkin type are of this style, or the cva style ) if you have a just vented barrel then you just need to look at the vent liner. to verify that its the liner pull the liner and install a plug 9 if you don't have a screw of the proper size wrap a couple turns of tape around your barrel pour your measure of powder down the barrel and seat it with out a ball now remove the tape and look at the powder is it all the way up to the outside ? if not you have found your problem and you may have to thump the butt on the ground before seating the ball some have to "pound" the lock with their fist after dumping the powder. remember that mas produced guns are just as good as any custom gun made or there wouldn't be so many of them around. If you haven't already done so check out Friendship there are lots of experts to be found there, but be aware of any advice that starts with its junk, get rid of it, buy only ******* brand !

I'll add those to my list of things to investigate. I'm only about 90 minutes east of Friendship I can't wait to go to some events down there!

 

[Brokennock]

I don't have any photos unfortunately. If I had to guess, it was probably spitting a grain or two into the pan it looked like a bit less than what my spring loaded primer thingy spits out.

I have a toothpick stuck in the right now, I'm home for lunch before going into the woods. During loading this morning I had the toothpick in, dumped my main charge, and aggressively thumped the butt into the grass to settle the powder into the breach, maybe that'll help. It's terribly difficult to get way down in there to clean it out all of the way which could also be a part of my headache.

This happened on occasion during sight in and plinking at the farm.

I'm waiting for my eCheck to clear into the sellers account , then I have a Kibler Colonial heading my way so I can hang the Traditions on the wall and retire it from hunting.

I wish you luck in the woods.
A little less than a spring loaded plunger drops is a lot of 3f. Have you tried shooting the gun with just that amount that came out of the flash hole, or do you add more prime every time? I ask because I do have one gun that does not like too much prime. On the rare occasion I use one of those plunger primers, one press is plenty.

I'll put that Kibler in the same class as the, "any custom gun," refered to above..... Ridiculous statement. If we put Kibler and even TVM in with "custom guns," I still would not say that "mass produced guns," are, "just as good." Look at all the topic threads about fixing and tweaking production guns, replacing locks, adjusting or replacing vent liners, many gyrations and "solutions" for dealing with their patent breaches....If they are just as good, why is there such a market for replacement upgrade parts?

Seems like the solution is on the way. Enjoy your Kibler. It will be way better than any mass produced gun.

 

[RobertIN]

I wish you luck in the woods.
A little less than a spring loaded plunger drops is a lot of 3f. Have you tried shooting the gun with just that amount that came out of the flash hole, or do you add more prime every time? I ask because I do have one gun that does not like too much prime. On the rare occasion I use one of those plunger primers, one press is plenty.

I'll put that Kibler in the same class as the, "any custom gun," refered to above..... Ridiculous statement. If we put Kibler and even TVM in with "custom guns," I still would not say that "mass produced guns," are, "just as good." Look at all the topic threads about fixing and tweaking production guns, replacing locks, adjusting or replacing vent liners, many gyrations and "solutions" for dealing with their patent breaches....If they are just as good, why is there such a market for replacement upgrade parts?

Seems like the solution is on the way. Enjoy your Kibler. It will be way better than any mass produced gun.

Thanks! No luck today, but I have a new plan for tomorrow. I've been using a blind near a food plot with no success, today I noticed that I bumped three does walking in from the same spot. They must be bedding there in the afternoons... On the way out I always stalk in on another plot next to one of our corn fields and what do you know... Three does with a 2-3 year old buck that ran out the corner of the field. Could of minutes later they appeared about 100 yards further away and moving towards the same spot they were in the field. When I drove past when it was getting dark they ran right back up the same way. So, weather permitting tomorrow I'm going to find a nice tree to pop a squat next to where I'll see them coming out into the field. That's the plan anyway.

I could be using too much primer, I only have 40 shots or so through the rifle and it's my first so I'm not 100% certain what the amount it likes is. I've been using enough that it fill half the pan when it's tipped away from the flash hole with the frizzen down.

I cannot wait to get started on the Kibler. Hunting season (and comfortable shooting season for that matter) will be over so I will take my time with it hoping to replicate the finish from this article:

https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/a-covid-19-project

 

[stephenprops1]

Thanks Phil. My concern is more with the powder from the main charge being forced out and not settling close to the inside wall of the flash hole, I don't know what I could do to remedy that besides buying some 2f so it doesn't self prime at all. It possible I put too much in the pan or something, hard telling.

I don't think oil is a problem as I don't use it in the barrel or anywhere powder will come in contact with it for this reason. I don't want any gunk collecting.

If you don't put oil in your barrel maybe you have rust blocking the flash hole.

 

[RobertIN]

If you don't put oil in your barrel maybe you have rust blocking the flash hole.

Nothing I'm there that I can see, haven't run a bore scope down there though it seems semi-clean at least. I rigged up a scraper with a .22 caliber cleaning rod and some stuff plastic who knows what's in there.

 

[D.Summers]

I always get a bit of "self priming" when my gun is fresh and clean! Clean barrel, dry, no oil. Maybe enuf to set off the charge, but I usually add to the few grains that end up in the pan. I can't quite figure on what's going on with your gun. Gotta be some kind of blockage. A blaze of correct size in the pan should ignite the main charge. Something has to be hindering the ignition!

 

[flatcreek]

The powder in the breach and the barrel gets packed when you seat the ball. Powder won't pack around corners in the vent cone especially with a patent breach, the cone or channel are longer. If that powder falls into the pan there will be a void.

 

[M. De Land]

I always get a bit of "self priming" when my gun is fresh and clean! Clean barrel, dry, no oil. Maybe enuf to set off the charge, but I usually add to the few grains that end up in the pan. I can't quite figure on what's going on with your gun. Gotta be some kind of blockage. A blaze of correct size in the pan should ignite the main charge. Something has to be hindering the ignition!

How about running a pipe cleaner through the fire channel each time before a reload or perhaps an offset blow tube to clear the vent with your breath before loading.
My guess is you have some kind of casting or machining obstruction in the fire channel that needs cleared out and smoothed up for improved ignition.

 

[RobertIN]

If you don't put oil in your barrel maybe you have rust blocking the flash hole.

Nothing I'm there that I can see, haven't run a bore scope down there though it seems semi-clean at least. I rigged up a scraper with a

How about running a pipe cleaner through the fire channel each time before a reload or perhaps an offset blow tube to clear the vent with your breath before loading.
My guess is you have some kind of casting or machining obstruction in the fire channel that needs cleared out and smoothed up for improved ignition.

I've ordered some pipe cleaners! If nothing else they should help me get into the patent breach.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Pipe cleaners can often be too big to fit through the touch hole. I find the small brushes sold by Harbor Freight to clean the tips of paint sprayers the right size to reach through the touch hole and reach the powder chamber.

 

[RobertIN]

Pipe cleaners can often be too big to fit through the touch hole. I find the small brushes sold by Harbor Freight to clean the tips of paint sprayers the right size to reach through the touch hole and reach the powder chamber.

I love me some harbor freight solutions