Question for Zonie (and everyone else)

[Still Hunter]

Thanks for the help with zeroing the 'bobcat'! Now that I have it zeroed in at 75 yards with a ball and patch, do I need to re-zero it for a 375 grain connical? I am guessing that I do, or is it so minimum that I can just adjust or some other technique I dont know of?

 

[Rebel]

The only way you are going to know where a conical is going to hit is to try it. Any change in components can change the POI.

 

[Blackpowder Injun]

show us a photo of your bobcat. I just love that little rifle...

 

[john12865]

Thanks for the help with zeroing the 'bobcat'! Now that I have it zeroed in at 75 yards with a ball and patch, do I need to re-zero it for a 375 grain connical? I am guessing that I do, or is it so minimum that I can just adjust or some other technique I dont know of?

You'll need to work up a different powder charge to bring the POI to where a rb would hit without exceeding max load for the bobcat. I tried this many years ago and just said FY#% *$ and stuck with rb. Rb will knock one hell off a hole in a deer and I'm not convinced that a conical will do any better then the rb at 100 yrds. The bobcat is a 100 yrd. gun. If your getting good groups at 75 yrds. I'd aim a little higher for 100 yrs. I myself would stick to rb. Just my experience. Generally I have found that if a gun is set up for rb, stick with that.

 

[Zonie]

"...do I need to re-zero it for a 375 grain connical..."
____________________________

Most definitely!

First off, your gun may not be worth a darn with a 375 grain conical bullet.
Each of these guns, even those made by the same company, have a load they like and a lot of loads they don't like.
The only way to find out the answer to this basic question is to buy some of the bullets you think you like and try them.

Now, for the zonie technical BS:
As for the effect of a 375 grain slug vs a (roughly) 180 grain roundball, with a 80 grain powder load the round ball will be traveling about 1570 FPS. A 370 grain MaxiBall with the same powder load will only be going about 1290 FPS.
Even though the slug will retain it's velocity much better than the roundball, the fact that it is traveling slower means it takes longer to get to the target.
This extra time results in it "falling" more while it is getting there.
Then on the other hand, because the slug is heavier the recoil is much more severe which means the barrel will rise more before the slug leaves the barrel.
Add these two facts of Physics together and you come up with the answer, which is: Dammed if I know. It will hit in a different place though. :rotf:

zonie

 

[Still Hunter]

Thanks for the :bull: ! I got a lot of laughs and a little info. I will try to work up a new powder charge and play around with the loads. I will let you all know the results in a few days or so.

 

[Frank Briggs]

How about this-

TC Renegade 50 cal caplock.

Patched round ball @50 yds 65 grains 777.

Aimed for the bull.

Same rifle, same day , same range, same point of aim.

TC "Maxi Ball" 370 grain bullet W/ 80 grains 777.

This is a stout load. My rifle is rated for 110 grains of BP but I don't think I want to put more than 80 grains of 777 behind that heavy bullet. It kicks!

Does that help?

 

[shortstring]

You can't trade accuracy for power. I like the old saying "It don't matter if you can shoot thru a cast iron skillet if you can't hit it"

 

[Goldhunter]

"...do I need to re-zero it for a 375 grain connical..."
____________________________

Most definitely!

First off, your gun may not be worth a darn with a 375 grain conical bullet.
Each of these guns, even those made by the same company, have a load they like and a lot of loads they don't like.
The only way to find out the answer to this basic question is to buy some of the bullets you think you like and try them.

Now, for the zonie technical BS:
As for the effect of a 375 grain slug vs a (roughly) 180 grain roundball, with a 80 grain powder load the round ball will be traveling about 1570 FPS. A 370 grain MaxiBall with the same powder load will only be going about 1290 FPS.
Even though the slug will retain it's velocity much better than the roundball, the fact that it is traveling slower means it takes longer to get to the target.
This extra time results in it "falling" more while it is getting there.
Then on the other hand, because the slug is heavier the recoil is much more severe which means the barrel will rise more before the slug leaves the barrel.
Add these two facts of Physics together and you come up with the answer, which is: Dammed if I know. It will hit in a different place though. :rotf:

zonie

:bow: You are soooo wise. :bow: :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Still hunter: If you do penetration tests with both the conical and the round ball, you will find that the round ball does just fine on a deer out to 100 yds, and even further. My first deer was shot at only 40 yds, but my .50 RB broke a rib going into her chest, cut through the bottom of both lungs, cut an artery or two along the way, and broke another rib going out. The deer staggered down the side of the ravine and piled up at the bottom. The exit hole was larger than the entrance. The PRB tore up a lot of organs going through that deer. I don't see any reason to using a conical in a gun that is .45 cal. or larger for shooting deer. Conicals will rarely expand, even if they hit bone, so you actually destroy less tissue than a RB will do. And, they always exit, expending most of their energy on the ground behind, where it does absolutely no good. Add to that the additional recoil that beats on the shooter every time he squeezes the trigger, and using a conical just doesn't make a lot of sense, until you consider hunting an animal like a bear, or elk, cariou, or moose. Those game animals are much larger, and have much heavier bones. If you hit a bone with your conical in one of them, it will upset, and tear up a lot of internal organs, delivering shock to the system which will often put the animal down in its tracks. All that energy is wasted on deer, however. Consider that a 50 ca. round ball weights about 180 grains, and a .54 cal. round ball weighs 230 grains. Those are equivalent to a heavy .30 caliber hunting bullet, and a ball round in a .45 ACP, respectively. While a pure lead ball does not perform the same as either of those bullets, it still carries a lot of mass for penetration, and the expansion characteristics of the RB make it a superior tissue destroyer to the conical.

I recommend sticking to a PRB in your rifle for deer hunting. I zeroed my .50 cal. rifle to hit 2 inches high at 50 yds, but I know exactly where it strikes at 100 yds. Most of my deer have been taken in river bottoms, where even a 50 yd shot is difficult to take, and my deer have been shot much closer than that.

 

[Still Hunter]

Although what you said makes sense, I prefer the sheer knock down power to penetration. A slug that weighs 375 grains as opposed to one that weighs 150 grains is going to provide more no matter how you look at it. True enough a RB probably does have enough to do the job VERY well, but it is my preference to use the heaviest slug possible. I do the same with my modern rifles (actually use a 12 guage slug). Its a little less accurate and the range is much shorter but she/he aint gonna move much after a hit with a 375 grain slug to the shoulder/heart/lung. Just preference, but it is good to know that a RB is effective too.

 

[Still Hunter]

How about this-

TC Renegade 50 cal caplock.

Patched round ball @50 yds 65 grains 777.

Aimed for the bull.

Same rifle, same day , same range, same point of aim.

TC "Maxi Ball" 370 grain bullet W/ 80 grains 777.

This is a stout load. My rifle is rated for 110 grains of BP but I don't think I want to put more than 80 grains of 777 behind that heavy bullet. It kicks!

Does that help?

GREAT SHOOTING :applause: :applause: :applause:

Yes it does help. Thanks. If I get my rifle sighted in like that it's not gonna matter cuz You'll still hit a vital if you can keep 'em in the 8 inch plate!!!

 

[Rebel]

Well, from my own personal experience i have had better luck with a rd ball on deer than a conical. The rd ball flattens out when it hits them and does more damage than a conical, which just punches a hole through. Now on larger game a conical may be fine, but on deer i would go with the rd ball. JMO

 

[jethro224]

Although what you said makes sense, I prefer the sheer knock down power to penetration. A slug that weighs 375 grains as opposed to one that weighs 150 grains is going to provide more no matter how you look at it. True enough a RB probably does have enough to do the job VERY well, but it is my preference to use the heaviest slug possible. I do the same with my modern rifles (actually use a 12 guage slug). Its a little less accurate and the range is much shorter but she/he aint gonna move much after a hit with a 375 grain slug to the shoulder/heart/lung. Just preference, but it is good to know that a RB is effective too.

Still Hunter,
You may have missed Pauls point. It's not really about the energy carried to the target/game, but more about the energy TRANSFERRED while the projectile is INSIDE the game.

Think about it this way;
Shooting a deer with a bullet carrying, say, 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards, that bullet will hit the deer and then completely penetrate and exit still carrying maybe 700 ft/lbs of energy on a broadside double lung shot. It dumped about 300 ft/lbs of energy while in the deer.

With the same shot at the same deer using a round ball load that makes 600 ft/lbs at 100 yards and a ball that stops just under the off-side hide, you have TRANSFERRED all 600 ft/lbs of energy into the deer. More "WALLOP" from the round ball when looked at this way. :hmm:

I don't own a chronograph and probably couldn't get 2 deer to stand in front of it for testing purposes if I did so I can't prove the theory but this is how it was explained to me.

Whatever you end up hunting with, have fun, be safe and Good Luck! :hatsoff:

 

[Slamfire]

I don't think the kinetic energy carried by the projectile has any bearing on killing power. It is merely a theoretical number to compare between different objects and is heavily weighted to velocity. Lord knows if I transferred 1000 pounds of energy to any deer it'd fall down, right away. I haven't had all that many bang/flops, even with modern rifles. :nono:

 

[jethro224]

I was just passing on the theory of how a round ball CAN have as much or more "sheer knock-down power" and "wallop" as a 375 grain slug. I didn't come up with the theory, and I don't know who to give the credit to, but that's how it was explained to me. Makes sense to me, your mileage may vary. :v

I haven't had many bang-flops either and the ones I have had all involved central nervous system. They do usually fall within 50 yards tho. (Knock on wood they'll keep doing that.)

 

[paulvallandigham]

Modern guns, with pointed bullets, and high velocity attempt, and do kill deer with shock waves that are created in the body, and distroy tissue and internal organs sufficiently to kill. It is common for the bullets to completely penetrate the body and dump most of their kinetic energy outside the target, where it does nothing to contribute to killing. Unless you break a leg bone, or the spine, you usually won't see a deer drop in its tracks using these little bullets.

Round ball kill differently. They do expand on impact, and while moving much slower, cause direct tissue and organ damage because of their diameter, and increased diameter due to expansion. The fact that the expansion occurs within the body causes shock waves to disrupt and damage internal organs and tissues beyond the wound channel itself, just as a hollow point expanding pistol, or rifle bullet does. Not too many people are hunting with rifles whose bore diameters start out at 45 and 50 calibers, while those are considered normal for deer hunting ML guns. Conicals, in ML guns, just don't react the same on a thin skinned animal like a white tail deer as do modern bullets. They can't fly as fast, nor expand as fast as a PRB will. The closest bullet used in modern guns is the traditional Foster or Brenneke style shotgun slug. Those slugs kill very well at the lower velocities they use, because of their large diamter, and ability to expand on impacting with any solid bone.

The debate about " Killing power" has been going on for decades, because it really is not a scientic term, but rather a fictional terms created by gun writers to sell stories. I grew up reading the debate between the " big Bore " guys, and the " small bore/high velocity " crowd on the other. Three can be no doubt that high speed bullets kill, and do so efficiently and quickly, when the bullet hits the torso at speeds of 1800 fps and faster. There is also no doubt that a PRB in .45 cal. will kill a deer at 100 yds, with any good placement. Both exhibit " Killing Power", and just do it differently to maximize the other characteristics of the calibers and cartridges that fire them.

 

[defib_wizard]

I don't think the kinetic energy carried by the projectile has any bearing on killing power. It is merely a theoretical number to compare between different objects and is heavily weighted to velocity. Lord knows if I transferred 1000 pounds of energy to any deer it'd fall down, right away. I haven't had all that many bang/flops, even with modern rifles. :nono:

I have to disagree with you on this about the kinetic energy. Yes velocity does play an important role but it is the energy transfer and accuracy that makes up the difference. I don't have a lot of hunting experience but i have helped friends dress out thier deer and elk. I have more experience with humans that are shot. Take a 22lr , it's a small weight bullet but is high velocity and can be quite deadly. 9 mm is a much larger bullet but is usually slower. however it can also be deadly.

There are many facters that come into play. when a bullet hits flesh ( any type).

1. the thickness and ability of the skin to be punctured. (harder surface = bullet flattening and energy transfer )

2. density of the tissue ( more tissue resistance = more energy transfer )

3. how vascular the organs hit are. ( blood flow )

The bullet will make two channels in the flesh;
one is the size of the projectile or slightly larger this is the permanent cavity. the shock wave of the energy transfer of this flesh being pushed out of the way causes a much larger temporary cavity. The pressures of the flesh being streched so rapidly tears vessel and caused additional bleeding and injury.
If the bullet hits a bone and shatters it all of the pieces will have their own permanent and temporary cavities.

It goes to figure the bigger the bullet the bigger the permanent cavity. But the slower the bullet the smaller the temporary cavity

example- you shoot an elk in the lungs the hide is tough and you get some expansion it misses the ribs somehow the lung tisue is not that dense. So not a lot of energy transfer from tissue resistance.

But the lungs are highly vascular ( there is almost as many cappilaries in the lungs as there are in the rest of the body ) The permanent channel is a small hole but the temporary channel is huge, lung tissue and blood vessels are shreded the animal is rapidly killed by blood loss and the inability to breathe

example # 2 you hit it in the liver; a very dense organ. You get a good size temporary cavity but the liver while being very vascular and dense will absorb more energy and be severly damaged. The not all of the blood flows through the liver all of the time. the animal will die but it will be much slower unless your bullet hit something else.

One of the good things about having your bullet go all of the way through your animal is there is less chance of the wound sealing it self up and the animal living longer so you can't find it.
The other is the blood trail to track it.

The person with the low velocity low energy weapon can be deadly if they can be accurate. ( think archery hunters ( same permanent but much smaller temporary cavities )

higher power weapons give you more leeway on accuracy due to the damage caused by the energy transfer.

Thanks for letting me put in my 6 cents ( I passed 2 a third of the way through) :thumbsup:

 

[windwalker_au]

i have bin shooting my 50 cal for 30 years when i hunt pigs here in western australia i always use a mini bullet it is a cast lee with the base pin turned down to make a thicker skirt so it doese not blow with heavy loads, and i always fill the base with lube.i get real good expasion out of my minies the pigs drop in there tracks.heres a pic of a recoverd mini the load is 375 grn mini 100grn of fff.
bernie :grin: