Question on filing the muzzle ???

[smo]

I can understand the process ….. I think.

Gases escaping on one side the barrel quicker than the other side…Does this create somewhat of a spin/ rotation of the ball or shot?

If not what causes the point of impact too shift when applying this method?

Also does the size of the ball matter? More mass= more filing too get the desired results ?

I’m not wanting too start an argument, but I’m curious as too how this actually works?

A Shot column would be easier I would think compared too say a 1 ounce + mass/ ball…

Please understand, I’m not questioning the results….. but just looking for a more clear understanding of how this actually works.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I don't know but have an opinion.
My opinion is drag on one side and a force from the gas rapid expansion on the opposite side.

 

[Brokennock]

Think of it like steering a tracked vehicle, or amateurs paddling a canoe and trying to turn. Slow down the left side or speed up the right side, and the vehicle turns left. If an object is traveling forward and gets hung up or slowed down on one side, it turns to that side.
So, when we shorten one edge of the muzzle, it is like creating that hang up on the opposite side.

 

[Brokennock]

Also, not sure, but, overall, I think my shot loads have more mass than the roundballs I shoot. Pretty sure they weigh more.
I would almost think that the ball would deflect to the desired side easier than the shot and we are moving the entire thing at once, not a mass of individual pellets with a longer distance between leading edge and trailing edge.

Some high speed photography playing with this would be awesome.

 

[smo]

Guys, I fully agree and understand the logic…
Kinda like the principles applied too drafting in racing …I think.

But playing the devils advocate…
The given examples are moving at much slower speed and traveling over a longer distance…
I mean, filing a few thousand’s off the very edge of the barrel…. One millionth of a second… maybe less in exposure time.

Again Please understand, I’m fully in agreement this will work.. Although I’ve never tried it personally.
But my pea brain just can’t understand it….

BN, in my mind…..2 ozs of shot creates a long shot column in my 16 gauge..my ball weighs approximately 1 oz.

Think like mentioned above, it creates drag moving parts & pieces of the 2 oz shot load over a longer period of time, thus making moving the roundball, which has barrel contact at its radius for only a fraction of that time…harder too maneuver due too it’s weight vs a shortened rate of time at the bore & beyond.

This is probably one of those unexplainable questions… But just wanted too hear everyone’s opinion.

Thanks for everyone’s responses .

 

[Brokennock]

it creates drag moving parts & pieces of the 2 oz shot load over a longer period of time, thus making moving the roundball, which has barrel contact at its radius for only a fraction of that time…harder too maneuver due too it’s weight vs a shortened rate of time at the bore

You might be right.
As mentioned, some high speed photography tests would be interesting and probably answer these questions.

I'm headed for my powder scale.
Does 1oz of shot by volume weigh 1oz by weight? How will this compare to the roundball I shoot from the same gun?

 

[Brokennock]

Not sure what if it helps currently, but, maybe at some point it will help us learn something from the discussion.
Here is what the powder scale and Google tell me,




The .610 roundballs I usually shoot weigh around 342 grains, so,

 

[nhmoose]

By volume will depend on the shot size to the measure.

1 ounce is 437.5 grains which is 7000 divided by 16

When you want a 1ounce measure of shot determine the size shot you want to use and fit the measure to that what gives 437.5 grains by scale.

If you used #6 remember #9 will be more than an ounce and #2 will be less than an ounce.

 

[Britsmoothy]

But playing the devils advocate…
The given examples are moving at much slower speed and traveling over a longer distance…
I mean, filing a few thousand’s off the very edge of the barrel…. One millionth of a second… maybe less in exposure time.

You make a good point but please bare in mind the same high pressure driving the payload is itself sufficient to just give it a nudge, irrespective of time.
I think to illustrate, if a canoeists turns his paddle to turn the canoe there is an instant influence or force on the paddle. Just because he is moving slowly it does not take minutes for an influence to manifest itself.

Put another way, what we perceive as an inconsequential amount of time like in this case is consequential.
To perhaps illustrate. Try to imagine just how quickly it takes a bullet or soft lead ball to expand in a target.
It must be very quick and we accept it because we see the evidence.
With the filing a muzzle some of us have seen the evidence of its affect so are prepared to not dismiss it due to a time issue.
Another reasoning is large rockets that are steered via small steering rockets on the fuselage of the main rocket body. They only burn for micro seconds to make corrections. Even less time in the vacuum of space.

 

[William Lincoln]

Bullet drag could cause tumbling or harmonic instability. Maybe that is
why nothing seems more accurate than a Round Ball.

 

[sawyer04]

Bullet drag could cause tumbling or harmonic instability. Maybe that is
why nothing seems more accurate than a Round Ball.

I have had problems with rounds pulling after exit from the barrel when the barrel wasn't square. This usually happened in my earlier years of repair of early kit guns and some factory built, probably prehistoric to many here. The gasses exit the barrel early on the short side and throws the round in the opposite direction, has been hinted by many here, wouldn't that be possible with a shot wad?

 

[flntlokr]

You might be right.
As mentioned, some high speed photography tests would be interesting and probably answer these questions.

I'm headed for my powder scale.
Does 1oz of shot by volume weigh 1oz by weight? How will this compare to the roundball I shoot from the same gun?

If you use a VOLUMETRIC measure that would deliver one oz of water, it would in no way give you the same weight of shot. BP measures are usually set to deliver the volume equivalent of a wieght. If you have a shot measure for 1 oz equivalent, it will give you about that weight, but it would give you much less than that weight of water.

 

[smo]

I’m with ya Brits….

I probably end up giving it a try next time one of my smoothbores needs adjusting..

Don’t guess it’d work on a wire twist barrel? Or would it?

flntlocr,

I used a scale measured 2 oz load in my gun with 70 grns of fffg for what testing I did..
Most were made cartridges using brown paper shopping bags then loaded with a pinch of wasp nest over the powder charge.
They shot ok, but some slugged at 20 - 25 yards..

 

[Britsmoothy]

Don’t guess it’d work on a wire twist barrel? Or would it?

I don't see why not.

 

[smo]

Thanks
I didn’t know if there was a possibility for the barrel too untwist once filed.
I’m looking forward too testing an old double percussion gun soon…. Don’t even want too mention bending it here…..

 

[Brokennock]

If you use a VOLUMETRIC measure that would deliver one oz of water, it would in no way give you the same weight of shot. BP measures are usually set to deliver the volume equivalent of a wieght. If you have a shot measure for 1 oz equivalent, it will give you about that weight, but it would give you much less than that weight of water.

If you look at the picture,,,, low and behold,,,,, I'm using an adjustable,,,, shot measure.

 

[Brokennock]

I have had problems with rounds pulling after exit from the barrel when the barrel wasn't square. This usually happened in my earlier years of repair of early kit guns and some factory built, probably prehistoric to many here. The gasses exit the barrel early on the short side and throws the round in the opposite direction, has been hinted by many here, wouldn't that be possible with a shot wad?

This is exactly what we are talking about. The use of filing a minutus amount of material from a specific area on the edge of the muzzle in order to steer a roundball or shot load in the opposite direction.

 

[Britsmoothy]

To this day I believe, especially with fact that no accurate metal working lathe existed way back when the gun builder used files, hammers and fire that those nicely filed grooves around a muzzle that many believe were for arts sake are infact an artistic way of hiding the adjustment made by the maker to center the shot to near centered sights.
What better way to adjust the leaving ball from the muzzle with just an extra stroke of the file here or there! Barely noticeable.

 

[TCMonts]

I saw once in a modern gun magazine that was discussing crowning barrels, that a center punch used on the end of the barrel could shift the point of impact. they were demonstrating how inadvertent damage to the crown could affect accuracy. I don't think that would affect a muzzleloader in the same way as filing one side of the barrel but wonder if it could have a useable affect.

 

[French Colonial]

I saw once in a modern gun magazine that was discussing crowning barrels, that a center punch used on the end of the barrel could shift the point of impact. they were demonstrating how inadvertent damage to the crown could affect accuracy. I don't think that would affect a muzzleloader in the same way as filing one side of the barrel but wonder if it could have a useable affect.

I would ASSUME it would a muzzleloader, do not know why not. I have seen a .22 rifle that it definitely did using a center punch.

The only hesitation I would have is the center punch upsets some of the barrel steel into the bore which could cause some distortion of the projectile. Britsmoothy's method of filing would not.