Question on Pietta 1858 Starr DA

[denster]

I just received via the great brown truck of joy a 2007 vintage 1858 Starr DA revolver. Nice in that it works smooth right out of the box. Neat design and after going over the parts schematic I've got it pretty well figured out as to the mechanics with one exception. There is a spring attached by a screw to the back of the primary trigger. Part# 19B and called a trigger safety spring. It looks like it can be adjusted up or down. I have an idea what it might be for but figured I would see if anyone who has experience with this revolver can tell me for sure.

 

[Don]

I just looked at the exploded diagram on vti site and near as I can tell the spring your asking about is a trigger return spring. Because the Starr trigger doesn't accually drop the hammer like a modern DA revolver it has to contact a secondary trigger to drop the hammer. Ergo the primary trigger needs to move forward out of the way in order to allow the revolver to function properly and safely. At least that is my best educated guess from looking at the diagram. Boy that pistol has a lot of parts. Glad I don't have to clean it.

Don

 

[denster]

Don

Thanks for the response. I finally got it figured out. The mechanics of this are complicated yet simple at the same time. If that makes any sense. Actually the cocking trigger works just like a double action trigger and in that mode only moves the secondary trigger out of the way and continues the travel of the hammer until the cocking arm of the primary trigger clears the hammer pivot and the hammer drops. In single action you only pull the the cocking trigger untill the secondary trigger sear engages then let the cocking trigger forward and press the secondary trigger for a light single action release. That little spring on the trigger when fully up as delivered does nothing. Move it down and the *** on the spring engages the frame of the gun just before the double action releases giving you a short but heavy squeeze to release the hammer allowing you to use the sights double action or signaling that the revolver is cocked and you can release the cocking trigger and press the secondary trigger for a singal action release. I think I will just leave it in the all the way up position.
Cleaning should be a breeze as there is no way fouling can find it's way into the innards with this design. Although takedown and reassembly is pretty straight forward once you understand it.

 

[madcratebuilder]

My DA Starr well fail to ignite the caps when fired from the 'hammer cocked' position. It needs to have the primary trigger move the hammer fully to the rear, an additional .375, before it drops in order to have reliable ignition. Obviously different hammer spring pressures on these two revolvers.

I have looked for info on the period Starr, found this about the trigger spring.

The double action Starr revolver has been described as a hybrid between a double and single action gun. It is actually a "self cocker" as the large front "trigger" only cocks the hammer and rotates the cylinder. There is an adjustable curved spring lug, screw-held to the rear of the cocking lever that engages the small "real" trigger at the inside rear of the guard that actually releases the hammer to strike the percussion cap to fire the gun. When properly adjusted a long smooth pull of the front trigger or cocking lever will push into and activate the real trigger behind it.

http://armscollectors.com/mgs/starr_revolver_week_1.htm http://armscollectors.com/mgs/starr_revolvers_week_2.htm http://armscollectors.com/mgs/starr_revolvers_week_3.htm

 

[denster]

What year was your made. I had heard that Pietta had some problems with weak hammer springs. Mine is from 2007. I haven't had a chance to get to the range yet but I did pop off 6 CCI #11s from the single action position with no problems.

 

[denster]

Those were three interesting articles you posted from a historical viewpint. The author though did not understand the mechanics of the arm.
He states that the primary trigger was used only to cycle the weapon to be fired by the secondary trigger. In actuality the primary trigger is a true double action trigger and only pushes the secondary trigger out of the way during a double action cycle and fires the weapon in a manner very similar to modern double action revolvers. In single action it does serve only to **** the revolver which is then fired by a press on the secondary trigger.
Can't wait to get this puppy to the range this week and see how it does.

 

[madcratebuilder]

My DA is from 2001.

I would like to read some of Eban Starr's notes on his revolvers and just what his intentions were.

I treat the revolver as a DA only. I use the primary trigger only.

If you drop the primary trigger spring, the one on the back, down it well stop the trigger with the hammer in a cocked position, then you can fire with the secondary trigger. I can't see any benefit in doing this. I tend to shoot all DA as DA only.

I'm curious about the arbor-less design. Did Eban design it that way with the intent of fast cylinder changes?


This is from those links I posted.

When properly adjusted a long smooth pull of the front trigger or cocking lever will push into and activate the real trigger behind it.

I think this is the way Starr intended the revolver to be fired, as a DA only revolver. Not a lot of historical info on it.

You wrote

In actuality the primary trigger is a true double action trigger and only pushes the secondary trigger out of the way during a double action cycle and fires the weapon in a manner very similar to modern double action revolvers.

I got lost on that. The primary trigger can only drop the hammer by activating the secondary trigger.

My SA Starr has it's own idiosyncrasies, like locking up anytime half **** is used. I'm not sure if that's from a Pietta design flaw or if the original was the same. Normally the six extra cylinder notches are used as a safety, but my SA Starr well lock up tight if you use them. I would like to see how an original works.

 

[denster]

Sorry! Like I've said before sometimes I'm as clear as mud when I explain something. The secondary trigger only has one purpose that is to engage the full **** notch in the hammer for single action fire by pressing on it. If you use the primary trigger/cocking lever to fire it, when cocked, you will note that the hammer moves back about another quarter of an inch before it falls and the pull is heavier than if you just pressed the secondary trigger.
During a full double action cycle the cocking arm of the trigger engages the platnen of the hammer pivot and raises the hammer and as the pull continues the trigger engages the secondary trigger and pushes it out of the was so the hammer full **** notch will not catch it when the hammer falls, continuing the pull the hammer continues rearward untill the cocking arm of the primary trigger goes past the edge of the platnen on the hammer pivot and the hammer falls. Releasing the trigger the cocking arm pushes the spring loaded pivot back and falls below it for the next cycle. This is virtually identical to the way a modern S&W double action revolver works. You could remove the secondary trigger and its spring and the revolver would function just fine as a double action only without it.
Chicoine has some good articles in his book (I bought it after one of your previous posts)showing the break down of both the Pietta double action and single action revolvers.
Hope that is a little clearer.

 

[denster]

I did forget one other thing that secondary trigger does. It holds the hammer in the loading notch so that with a light touch on the primary trigger you can rotate the cylinder for loading.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I got you now :wink:

If you ever find any period info on loading procedures for either the DA or SA Starr I would sure like to read them.

 

[denster]

I'll sure let you know. Haven't had much luck in that respect with my research so far. I'd really like to locate a SA Starr now. Of course when I want one no one has one listed for sale and I have a compulsion about not paying full retail for anything.
Going to try to make it to the range on Friday if the weather clears.

 

[denster]

Hey madcratebuilder! Guess what I found? Wasn't having much luck on the net then I decided to try eBay. Typed in starr arms in the search and came up with this.
Starr Arms Company 1864 Rifle & Revolver Catalog
23 pages, about 8" X 5.5", glossy soft-cover in full color. New re-print restored and digitally enhanced from a nice photocopy. Printed on high quality 24# 97 bright acid free paper.
We are not affiliated with any arms or gun manufacturer.

CONTENTS INCLUDE:

Yonkers , New York
Starr Carbines and Rifles
Self-Cocking Improved Revolvers
Directions for Using Starr Breech Loading Carbine
Starr's Self Cocking Revolver directions for us
Testimonials
Weights and specifications

Guy is selling them for $9.95+ $3.75 shipping so I figured why not and ordered one. He has more for sale or I can photo copy mine when it comes in and send it to you.

 

[madcratebuilder]

On it! never thought about evil bay. Thanks.

 

[denster]

No problem. Should answer some questions. By the way if you run accross anyone offering a SA Starr for sale, let me know would ya.

 

[madcratebuilder]

You bet! Try asking here. http://www.voy.com/60048/