Question

[tenngun]

I'm sure as a hunter you know that a full pass through equates to better blood trails. And before you say deer don't go far enough to need them, if you shoot enough deer there will always come a day where blood trails help find a deer.

I really don't get why some guys get so pushy about light loads. If you can't handle the recoil fine but don't pretend there is no benefit from more energy and a flatter trajectory of going higher. Particularly if it produces accurate results.

I don’t think it a matter of handling the recoil. It’s just what’s needed.
Tiny bullets from a modern gun need high velocity and high energy yields to get the needed mushrooming, but most of the energy is out in the air on the off side.
However that thinking shadows our concepts of low power ml.
Even a maxi is low velocity and ballistically poor.
Except for a rifle like the hexagon bore whitworth that had an early style modern bullet down range performance is poor.
One has to look not at MV but terminal.
L and C had boxes, four pounds of powder and eight pounds of lead. That means a hundred and ten grain charge in their .54s, but over two hundred for their .69 .
Umph
How ever American powder was pretty low quality
Home made guns in the nineteenth century tends to see lower chargers, concurrent with improved home grown powder. This is civilian and military.
We don’t hunt deer with a .458, or .62 nitro express.
Dead deer is dead deer. And if you load a magnum load, ‘loaded for ba’r’ you get venison stew. So you don’t lose, you haven’t done any thing wrong. But compared to a .45 with a 60 grain charge you get the same stew.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I shoot 120gr 2F in my fast twist 50 cal hawken, 90gr 2F in my 62 smoothbore and 100gr 2F in my 54 flintlock slow twist. I'd go either lower or higher if need be, but that's where I get best performance.

That 120 grain load just sounds so painful from the bench. I’ve shot those loads out of my .50 calibre Pedersoli Alamo rifle, and that thin stock profile is just abusive with those loads.

90 grains to 100 grains is a solid region to be in, for hunting…keep in mind, my loads all have elk as a primary quarry. Deer are incidental to me. They are definitely smaller and don’t really need the same ballistics as an elk.

So I’m probably a bit of over kill. If I were strictly hunting deer, I could come down…but why? My hunting load is the most accurate load, north of 85 grains…

I’m an elk hunter at heart. What can I say…sorry, not sorry.

My favorite hunting calibre for big game is the .54…it is just amazing in its effect. I don’t know what it is, but there is a difference. I’ve hunted most of my life with a .50 calibre. I’ve killed a lot of deer with the .50 calibre, and a whole bunch of elk. Then I started using a .54 calibre. The .54 calibre is just a significantly more efficient big game calibre…I wish I could put all my experiences into words, and paint a verbal picture of what I’ve seen and experienced.…but I’m sorrily lacking.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Because it was the most accurate load

The only interesting gun is an accurate gun.

I find the most accurate load that is at least 85 grains, and that becomes my hunting load…my .50’s seem to all settle in around 93 grains to 98 grains as very accurate hunting loads.

On the other hand, my .54’s seem to have a lot of variation as to what is accurate. I have a beautiful .54 Early Plains Flintlock Rifle, that loves 85 grains…it shoots single hole groups at 80 yrds, which is about as far as my old eyes seem to be able to hold on target, these days. At the other end…I used to have a .54 CVA Big Bore that would shoot shots touching at 100 yrds, with 110 grains of fffg. I hated shooting that gun from the bench, but boy did it kill elk. Great hunting rifle…I still regret selling it.

Gosh I miss the days of shooting 1 inch groups at 100 yrds, open sights.

Blackpowder opens this Saturday, here in Colorado. Met a guy at the range this morning, getting his muzzleloader ready. He had shot 4 groups that were shots touching at 100yrds, open sights. To say I was jealous, is an understatement.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Why would you use the max load? The Civil war was fought with .54/.58 muskets primarily that used 50-60 grs max! There is absolutely no need to use that much powder. Many people here with decades of experience use much less than that and have been successful in hunting and target shooing. IMHO

Those weren’t hunting loads…those loads were not for bringing down big game; they were for stopping people in wartime.

 

[Bushfire]

That 120 grain load just sounds so painful from the bench. I’ve shot those loads out of my .50 calibre Pedersoli Alamo rifle, and that thin stock profile is just abusive with those loads.

View attachment 162208
90 grains to 100 grains is a solid region to be in, for hunting…keep in mind, my loads all have elk as a primary quarry. Deer are incidental to me. They are definitely smaller and don’t really need the same ballistics as an elk.

So I’m probably a bit of over kill. If I were strictly hunting deer, I could come down…but why? My hunting load is the most accurate load, north of 85 grains…

View attachment 162209
I’m an elk hunter at heart. What can I say…sorry, not sorry.

View attachment 162210
My favorite hunting calibre for big game is the .54…it is just amazing in its effect. I don’t know what it is, but there is a difference. I’ve hunted most of my life with a .50 calibre. I’ve killed a lot of deer with the .50 calibre, and a whole bunch of elk. Then I started using a .54 calibre. The .54 calibre is just a significantly more efficient big game calibre…I wish I could put all my experiences into words, and paint a verbal picture of what I’ve seen and experienced.…but I’m sorrily lacking.

I don't find the recoil bad at all unless I hold the gun wrong. I'm using modern bullets in my fast twist hawken and they benefit from higher velocities. Having said that I rarely ever shoot it since getting into flintlocks.

I agree on the 54 being one of the best all round big game calibre. I'm a red deer hunter the same way you're passionate about elk. Both are decent sized animals that appreciate a big ball at decent velocity I think.

Mind you, I worked up the 120gr charge for hunting bigger animals than deer. It works so figure why change?

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Back when we began muzzleloading, the prevailing thought was to use about the same amount of grains as the caliber of the rifle. As a result, most stuck with 50 for .50 cal. Those who read the Dutch Schultz instructions know that he recommended 1 1/2 times the grains for the caliber to start and find the best amount of grains for YOUR gun. He recommended changing up or down, five grains, to check the accuracy. He also mentioned the "crack" of the rifle heard as opposed to the "boom." After doing this, I have basically settled for 70 grains for my .50 cal. Sharon. Again, this is a general recommendation he makes and does not specifically state one load is the best until you experiment and sight it in at different loads.

Back when I started shooting blackpowder, that was how we found a starting point, to begin load development…it wasn’t the end point.

My .50 calibre CVA Mountain Rifle…I started with 50 grains of ffg…went up in 5 grain increments until I had a nice tight group. Then repeated the process beginning with 50 grains of fffg. Try different ball sizes, patch materials…then one day, blamo…tiny group, single ragged hole at 100 yrds, 95 grains of ffg, blue pillow ticking, beeswax lube. Hunted everything from prairie dogs, squirrels and rabbits, to deer with that load. I got my 1st ever blackpowder elk with that load. Shoulder black & blue, from the time I was 13…then suddenly one day, the rifle was no longer shooting tight groups.

Back to square one…starting with 50 grains, and then the gun suddenly decides it likes 88 grains, red pillow ticking. Blah, blah, blah…

I’ve come to realize that these guns will change point of aim, as the number of shots that has been put through them increases. They tend to wander every couple hundred shots, until about 1000 or so shots, then they seem to settle in for the duration, until the barrel is shot out…

My old CVA Mountain Rifle, my 1st muzzleloader, has almost no rifling left in it…it’s almost a smoothbore. I’ve got an old mid 70’s .50 calibre CVA Mountain Rifle kit to build, and once that project is done…hopefully this winter…I’ll be taking my old original CVA and converting it from .50 calibre percussion, to a .54 calibre Flintlock, using the upgrade L&R lock. Then both of these guns will be inherited by my grandsons…so yeah, there’s that…

At that point I’ll have most all my rifle projects done, and a lot of shooting to do.

Wow…that was quite the ramble…

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I don't find the recoil bad at all unless I hold the gun wrong. I'm using modern bullets in my fast twist hawken and they benefit from higher velocities. Having said that I rarely ever shoot it since getting into flintlocks.

I agree on the 54 being one of the best all round big game calibre. I'm a red deer hunter the same way you're passionate about elk. Both are decent sized animals that appreciate a big ball at decent velocity I think.

Mind you, I worked up the 120gr charge for hunting bigger animals than deer. It works so figure why change?
View attachment 162237

No…From what I tell in your image; your rifle looks to have a wider buttstock profile. That’s a danged nice Water Buffalo yah got there…

The Pedersoli Alamo, that I mentioned in my post, has a narrow buttstock profile. That blasted gun is so fricken accurate, but those hunting loads just cut like a knife, into my shoulder, when shooting from the bench. It’s brutal…I don’t hunt with it any more…I use one of my .54’s.

Alamo Rifle on top…2 of my .54’s below

 

[pwbsmokey]

I would think 70 grs is a decent load in a .50 ! I'm not sure why you need an exit wound? If the ball stays inside all the energy is inside too!

I'm sure as a hunter you know that a full pass through equates to better blood trails. And before you say deer don't go far enough to need them, if you shoot enough deer there will always come a day where blood trails help find a deer.

I really don't get why some guys get so pushy about light loads. If you can't handle the recoil fine but don't pretend there is no benefit from more energy and a flatter trajectory of going higher. Particularly if it produces accurate results.

I couldn't have said it better

 

[Tom A Hawk]

My favorite hunting calibre for big game is the .54…it is just amazing in its effect. I don’t know what it is, but there is a difference. I’ve hunted most of my life with a .50 calibre. I’ve killed a lot of deer with the .50 calibre, and a whole bunch of elk. Then I started using a .54 calibre. The .54 calibre is just a significantly more efficient big game calibre…I wish I could put all my experiences into words, and paint a verbal picture of what I’ve seen and experienced.…but I’m sorrily lacking.

Agreed. A .54 round ball travelling about 2000 fps has one hell of a whack factor.

Here is a visual picture.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

@Tom A Hawk That was awesome…Loved it.

That calibre, in a traditional platform…drops elk, like right now.

Ohhh, I miss those days in the field. Those were some grand doins, shining times…

 

[Bushfire]

No…From what I tell in your image; your rifle looks to have a wider buttstock profile. That’s a danged nice Water Buffalo yah got there…

The Pedersoli Alamo, that I mentioned in my post, has a narrow buttstock profile. That blasted gun is so fricken accurate, but those hunting loads just cut like a knife, into my shoulder, when shooting from the bench. It’s brutal…I don’t hunt with it any more…I use one of my .54’s.

View attachment 162239
Alamo Rifle on top…2 of my .54’s below

Can't find my tape measure right now (thanks Kids!) But this is my hawken butt. Goes to the knuckle on my thumb sk naybe an inch give or take.

 

[frankie]

65-75 gr. 2 or 3 FFF with patched round ball should be all you need in either to kill a deer or target shoot.

I agree with waksupi

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Can't find my tape measure right now (thanks Kids!) But this is my hawken butt. Goes to the knuckle on my thumb sk naybe an inch give or take.View attachment 162260

Not the best image..bit of a balancing act, but here is my Alamo Rifle next to my Early Virginia.

100 grain charge in the Early Virginia, good solid shove.

100 grain charge in the Pedersoli Alamo…pick up arm, use nail gun to re-attach arm, use remnants of re-attached arm to reload and do it again…all while controlling breathing, and heart rate so that the shot is perfect.

The good thing about the Alamo:
Insanely Accurate
Nice light gun…6 1/2 lbs
Insanely Accurate
Very maneuverable in heavy timber
And before I forget…it’s just insanely accurate

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I'm sure as a hunter you know that a full pass through equates to better blood trails. And before you say deer don't go far enough to need them, if you shoot enough deer there will always come a day where blood trails help find a deer.

I really don't get why some guys get so pushy about light loads. If you can't handle the recoil fine but don't pretend there is no benefit from more energy and a flatter trajectory of going higher. Particularly if it produces accurate results.

Yes, and you could always use a bigger size ML and even more powder. Somewhere along the way, many people realize that it is not always needed. IMHO. Even when using unmentionables, so many people are "overgunned" for what they are actually doing/hunting. IMHO As far as trajectory goes, I rarely shoot any ML past 75 yds because of the sights, and of course my eyes. I also do not hunt in wide open spaces. I have never had a deer get away, nor the people I have hunted with, probably because we pass up any shot that is less than 100%. We just do not need a deer that bad.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Those weren’t hunting loads…those loads were not for bringing down big game; they were for stopping people in wartime.

They worked perfectly. Anything hit with that "huge" Minnie, whether man nor beast, would have a very bad day, IMHO

 

[tenngun]

They worked perfectly. Anything hit with that "huge" Minnie, whether man nor beast, would have a very bad day, IMHO

I think it was at a thousand or maybe three hundred yards, I would have to look up, but too lazy as it’s don’t matter.
Anyway in test with the ‘light’ charges of a military minie gun the fat ball could go through four inches of pine.
I would hazzard that few animals could walk far with a .58 minie through the lights that had that much power.
I wouldn’t want to face grizz or his Alaskan big brother with any ml unless I had some back up. Even so with in a hundred yards I doubt that any North American animal is likely to survive a service charge from a WBTS rifle.
A bear might survive long enough to get his honor guard in hell. But he won’t see sun rise

 

[Bigpete]

I don't find the recoil bad at all unless I hold the gun wrong. I'm using modern bullets in my fast twist hawken and they benefit from higher velocities. Having said that I rarely ever shoot it since getting into flintlocks.

I agree on the 54 being one of the best all round big game calibre. I'm a red deer hunter the same way you're passionate about elk. Both are decent sized animals that appreciate a big ball at decent velocity I think.

Mind you, I worked up the 120gr charge for hunting bigger animals than deer. It works so figure why change?
View attachment 162237

An exceptionally good reason to shoot as much gun as is accurate.....

 

[COTNTOP]

I made some targets out 1/4" plate and 40gr with PRB out of a 45 Seneca put a really nice dent in that target at 70yd. Did not realize the power of those roundballs.