R.E.Davis Jaeger Lock Info needed

[Zonie]

Anyone out there removed the Mainspring from a Davis Jaeger or French Fusil lock? (They use the same part). The lock I have is the French Fusil type C.
The mainspring in this lock has an exceptionally short upper arm and a very long lower arm reaching back to the tumbler. When I removed it to permit the start of the inletting process I found my mainspring vise is not long enough to restrain the lower leaf while its screw fulcrum is against the upper leaf.
To get around this, I used the infamous Vise Grip clamping on the little upper tail adjacent to the retaining screw. Sure enough, it held just long enough to give me faith and then Snap! the upper tail broke off.
Now about $19 poorer I know I will be faced with reinstalling it. Not only that, the lower arm on the new spring seems to hang down about 11/16 below the lockface lower edge so it will have to be bent at least 1 5/16 upward (measured at the tumbler end) to permit reinstallation of the tumbler.

Any Ideas or hints??

 

[Voyageur]

I have two of those locks (French Fusil Type C) but I have not had to take them apart as yet. I believe that I would increase the length of the bar on your mainspring vise if possible. Perhaps you can put a support under the short end of the mainspring, something like hard shoe sole leather. That might take some of the stress off since that portion of the mainspring doesn't need to flex.

 

[Birddog6]

I have used them several times & have one apart now. It is a close fit with my vice but it works. I have to install the vice on the mainspring with the cock in the full cock position & give the thumbscrew on the vice 1/2 a turn, set in vice & then let the cock down all the way & the spring will just barely come out. (My vice came from MSM)

I would call them & tell them of the problem & see if they will reeplace the entire lock. You don't want them to rebuild it.......

The Davis Jaeger lock I got the tumbler broke after the third shot & it would fire on halfcock. Davis sent me a tumbler & it didn't fit right. Sent the lock to them & they siad it was an old style lock & they would have to modify it. They sent me back the most godawefull mess you ever saw in your life & it looked like a child had built it. So it took me 3 days of filing, fitting, & polishing to get the lock to work properly. The mainspring was binding into the bridle & was way too long, the tumbler was not polished well, the cock was loose on the new tumbler, the cock stuck way out on the new tumbler & the tumbler didn't fit the hole in the lockplate so the cock had about 3/16" of side to side play, Several other errors in building it that I can't remember now, but it was a total mess.....
The last 2 new Davis Jaeger locks I got were much better & redesigned locks. This time I hand picked them & looked them over well before I bought them. They may be able to build a new on but you can forget it if it is an old style.

 

[LRB]

I also found the same condition as birddog, with the same vice and lock. Full cock plus half a turn. Close, but works.

 

[tg]

I don't know if it is practical at this point but you could exchange for another lock, I believe that the one mentioned is not really correct for a C Fusil anyway. I suspect you are past that stage by now.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks for the responces.
I bought the lock from TOW and I dont know if it is an old or new design. I doubt that TOW would help me with this as it was my fault and I as I indicated above have bought a replacement spring from TOW.
I may have to replace the swiveling shoe in my vice for a longer home made one as was suggested above because the spring really needs to have the bending load out there adjacent to the tumbler and my vise is about 3/4 inch short of that.
Oh well, it will be some time before I have the lock inletted into the stock so I'll have some time to think about it.
Thanks again.

 

[tg]

If you don't have Hamiltons book "Colonial Frontier Guns" it would be an intersting aid in your project. Are you making a trade gun or Fine Fusil? Walnut stock?? polished barrel?? The furniture from TOW for the C looks pretty good when compared to the original stuff. I have my eye on the Tulle hunting gun on pg 114-115, with a little work on the lock it would be a ringer for some existing originals.

 

[squirejohn]

I've taken the mainspring out of my Davis Jaeger a few times with no problem - also used a vise purchased from Mt.St.Ml.
I've seen several references(posts) to the Davis so-called type C & D locks not being appropriate for the French fusils. I believe one post refered to Germanic locks being used incorrectly in the fusils. Could someone please tell me what type lock would be appropriate for these French trade guns, and what the basic differences are between the Jaeger, Davis C & D locks, and the correct locks are? If this requires too detailed a response what references are available that I could look this up? As you might have guessed I payed good money for a semi custom type D fusil and it came with a Jager lock

 

[tg]

Take a look at the locks Caywood uses or French Fusil.com the Bannana shape is the main problem with these guns this went out of style early in French gun making long before the D period and may more likely have been use in military type guns, the type of lock may have varied if the gun was a trade gun or a fine fusil or a fine hunting gun from the Tulle factory,basicaly if you figure the Jaeger lock is correct for a 1750 German gun you probably are not going to get a 1700 French lock by altering the cock or frizzen. I think that most who have done their home work on these guns concur, but the source of correct locks and pre-inlet stocks is limited. I think TOW and Davis just figured it was easier to use the same lock plate and inletting for several guns, the "Tulle" lock in TOW would be closer but needs some modifications. I have studied this my self and talked in great detail with a gentleman who has done extensive research on the early French guns. But the "errors" are common and mostly overlooked by most, maple stocks, browned barrels, nearly all .62 bores when the bore ranges were from .577-.623. as with many semi custom guns one may get closer to the real thing but not quite there, and one must always do some home work and not rely on the builder/suppliers slant on things. If you post your questions on these guns over on the Trekker forum or Colonial Backwoods forum there is someone there who can offer a lot more. Hamiltons and Bouchards books are a good source for some pics and drawings.

 

[squirejohn]

tg - Thanks for your detailed response. The type D trade gun I have is very similar to the fusil ordinaire shown on the web page you mentioned. I got it in the white with a walnut stock. It even has the engraved hunting scene shown in Hamiton Colonial Frontier Guns (pg 37 fig. i). The big difference is the lock. I could have had a different lock but thought it would be more appropriate to use the Davis type D lock in ToW catalog. I also checked out the Caywood brochure which shows the French style lock. However it also states this lock fits a German jaeger style gun. Looks much different than the Davis banana jaeger - confusing! I don't know what commercial lock would be appropriate since it's my understanding Tulle didn't make trade guns at least between 1691 - 1741 (Bouchard). However I also read somewhere that guns from Tulle that were called hunting muskets were called trade guns if made somewhere else, such as St. Etienne. Inconsistencies and varied nomenclature used by different authors and manufacturers also adds to the confusion. For example most current suppliers list the type C as the fusil fin, and the type D as fusil ordinaire. By using this definition it means a fusil fin would not have existed after about 1730. I'm not sure this is entirely correct. It's my understanding that generally the tpye C & D designation not only refers to differences in mfg. such as cast vs engraved decorations, differences in finials, furniture etc., but also refered to time period these differences occured. Hamilton (pg 42) refers to a recovered Type D gun that was probably not a trade gun because of it's high quality lock and barrel, so therefore I assume it wouldn,t be designated as a fusil ordinaire.
Hamilton (Firearms on the Frontier - Guns at Fort Michilimackinac pg. 4) describes the fusil fin as "High quality fowling pieces or as the French called them, fusil fins." Hamilton same reference and page states "Trade guns, or fusil ordinaires manufactured in quality in Europe and brought in for sale in the fur trade." However Bouchard refers to the "ordinaire" as a common musket; similar to the Genadier which has a barrel band. Ravenshear also refers to the ordinaire, as a soldiers musket without provision for a sling. I guess I'd better shut up - rattled on long enough. It seems the more I read about French trade guns the less I understand.

 

[tg]

You are correct in stating that there is much confusion out there anout the French guns, I think the Tulle style lock shown is closer to the shape of the lock used on these guns from 1716 on, than the bananna one but needs some work. c (I think that the early round bannana locks went out and the flat non-bannana came into use then) check out the Tulle lock on TOW pg 114 and compare with the completed gun above it is the same lock but altered to match the originals.The type C and D are just some general classifications of a handfull of sideplates, trigger guards and buttplates. Hamiltons calling them "trade" guns is a bit missleading as a fine gun for hunting or service from the Tulle factory in 1720 could have the same furniture as a C, and one could have a type D fine Fusil if all the furniture was engraved and it was of higher quality finish. Some of the parts he listed may have been from better made Tulle hunting guns, Bouchard shows one Tulle fine gun that has what looks like a type D side plate rather than the S type on the plain Tulles, and the type C or D gun could have the cowsfoot stock and the Tulle might not.Most builders/suppliers have tried to piegon hole these guns with names for easy of marketing and parts supply. I think the real problem is the lack of existing originals in original condition, most studies are based on some old parts, rebuilt guns and documents that have survived. I think one could make an arguement for a bannana lock if it was of the French style (which I think Bouchard shows) on a later period gun by way of salvaging old parts to repair a gun, all in all it can be a tough task to come up with the correct stuff for a French smoothie, I liked the one on tow 114 as when finished it would be nearly identical to a couple in Hamiltons book that came out of Canada, and I agree that the more one studies these guns the less one seems to know.

 

[Zonie]

quote:Are you making a trade gun or Fine Fusil? Walnut stock?? polished barrel?? To answer that question at the risk of being banned from the forum:

This is "a 1750 style American gun built with salvaged parts from a French Fusil which (in another life in 1756) I obtained from a French Guard in Canada. (After striking his head with a stout club, he was in no position to object.) By the time I worked my way back down to the Colonies, the stock and barrel were excessively damaged but the lock and furniture were in good order so I contracted with a local Gunsmith to fashion a serviceable arm for me."
"Due to my limited means, I purchased a used but damaged barrel which the Smith was good enough to cut off and permit me to have for a small but just fee.
The gun is brass mounted with a single tricker protected by a wide brass tricker plate.
Whether it was out of the goodness of the Smiths heart (which I doubt) or his apprentice needed the practice I know not, but some carving was included which caused me to rejoice!"

In other words, it will be an American Transitional style, #3 curly maple stock mounted with a French Type C lock, sideplate and thimbels. It will have my cut off Coleran Swamped .54 barrel (mentioned in another post by me).

By the way, by saying the Type C lock used the same pieces in my first post I was refering to the internal parts. The Davis lockplate is close to the same banana shape and size as the Jaeger (see TOW Catalog), but the Cock, the Frizzen, and especially the Pan are visibly different.

 

[tg]

That is an interesting and whole plausible approach, the isue we were hashing around is that Davis "type C" bannana lock is not like anything used on any French fusils, which is of little concern for a gun as you have described, it may be a better "story" however to have the lock come from another source, particularly if you find yourself sitting around the fire in the company of some French gun students(VBG)

 

[squirejohn]

tg, Could you clarify the statement that the Davis Type C lock is not like any used on French fusils? The reason I ask is that Hamilton shows a variety of banana shaped French lock plates , prmarily mfg. before 1725 in his "Fort M" publication. Is the reason the Davis lock is not correct because of the shape of the cock, pan etc.? Or are we talking different shaped "bananas" ? Or something else?

 

[tg]

My understanding is the shape is incorrect,as well as pan, frizzen and cock details, you will see the same thing on the Tulle lock in TOW but the errors there are easily delt with.I think that the common trend in French Bannana locks was round untill 1716. I do not know of any early round plated/faced locks avaiable, a circa 1695 C gun would have had a rounded bannana lock after 1716 the flat type was used but I am not sure how long the Bannana style was kept, I don't think for long.I think some of this info passed on to me is from 'The flintlock and its origin and delevopement" By Lenk Torsten, I am going from memory on much of this as the info was shared with me and I do not have all the source material myself I have a couple of Hamiltons book and one of Bouchards. I think that the makers use the "close enough" line of thought.
when they modified the Davis Jaeger for the C and D guns. SquireJohn, drop me an e-mail and I will put you in touch with the gentleman who has shared his research on these guns with me.

 

[Zonie]

quote:Quoting TG: it may be a better "story" however to have the lock come from another source, particularly if you find yourself sitting around the fire in the company of some French gun students Well, I'll be danged if'n Am a gonna go out 'n buy 'nother lock now that A've got this 'un jus to make some dern student happy!!! This child never had much faith in them Frenchys stories nohow.
If'n some student asks Awm jus gona say "Hell, How do ye expect me to know whar that guard got the damn thing let alone who made it" an be done with it.

 

[tg]

I like your approach to building a gun from parts, this was done often but is neglegted in todays replicas, I think there was a gun attributed to Haines, the classic Lancaster builder with an entire set of European (looked English to me) furniture. When making a parts gun like you have in mind the end result could be interesting depending on whether a German, English or French builder worked on the project. You could have French furniture and a stock and carving with a German or English flair which is what the birth of the American longrifle is all about, and the original C lock could have been modified by the later builder, so I doubt anyone will shun you..... keeps us posted on the project, if I ever get things sorted out with this contraption I would like to see some pics when you are finished, I like the guns that drift a bit away from the "mainstream"

 

[squirejohn]

Thanks for the detailed info on the French locks.
Although it's too late for me to do anything about the jaeger lock on my fusil hopefully others will benefit from your knowledge on this subject. My e-mail address is [email protected]. Hopefully my knowledge of locks isn't too far down the learning curve and I can understand the information the gentleman you referred to has to offer. THANKS!

The ML season for deer opens in a couple of hours so I guess I'd better load up the old fuke (shorter barrel-handier in the woods than the fusil). Athough I have a doe permit I dont't know if i"ll try to fill it. The past two bad winters have clobbered the deer herd in these parts.