Raising the grain: Sanding

[Slowpoke]

Can someone tell me the proper way of doing this....

1. Do you raise the grain after you finish with a particular grit of sandpaper. Once you finish with 320, do you raise the grain then sand with the next finer grit of sand paper?
2. How many times do you noramlly do it?
3. Do you let the water dry naturally or use a heat gun or hair dryer?
4. What is your final grit of sandpaper that you use?
5. What would happen if you didn't raise the grain while you were sanding?
6. Do you ever sand while the wood is still damp?

Thanks
S'Poke

 

[LSU TIGER]

Usually, I sand down to 400, then raise the grain and resand with a well used piece of sand paper. I use plain water and let it air dry. A damp sponge works better than a wet sponge. Most times, 2-3 times works fine. I want to try scraping, as I hear that raising the grain can be skipped. :results:

 

[Slowpoke]

When I was at Dizon;s I saw Allen Martin using a double edged razor blade looking thing..... It did a good job.

I like sanding though, :youcrazy: I'm probaly sick in the head but I like it because I find problem with my finishing that I need to correct.

S'Poke

 

[RussB]

Can someone tell me the proper way of doing this....
1. Do you raise the grain after you finish with a particular grit of sandpaper. Once you finish with 320, do you raise the grain then sand with the next finer grit of sand paper?
2. How many times do you noramlly do it?
3. Do you let the water dry naturally or use a heat gun or hair dryer?
4. What is your final grit of sandpaper that you use?
5. What would happen if you didn't raise the grain while you were sanding?
6. Do you ever sand while the wood is still damp?
Thanks
S'Poke

Slowpoke that's some mighty fine questions. Those "little" unanswered questions like this can sometimes cause a stock to go south on you in a hurry.
Having done quite a few stocks in my time, I feel at least some qualification in responding to this as best as I can.
Bear in mind there is nothing, that I'm aware of, that is carved in stone, and there are probably as many "methods" as there are people doing it.
1. I raise the grain as often as necessary always going to a finer grit, until the last sanding, and that is more of a "rub" than a sanding.
2. How many times? depends on how much whiskering I can see or feel. I normally start with 220 and continue up 600. It is not unsual for me to do a 400 two or even three times.
3. I have not noticed much difference in using a blow dryer and allowing to dry on it's own. I suspect using the blow dryer to raise the grain a bit better...I'm not sure.
4. My final grit is most often 600, depending on how the wood is acting. Good "tight grain", such as a good Claro, may only need 400. Either way...The final "rub" is done with loose burlap in the hand. All prior sanding is done with a block. The final rub can take as long as an hour or so of hard work, and IMHO this is one the most important steps.
5. If you don't raise the grain when sanding your final finish will raise it, and that can get ugly.
6. As a rule, I wait until it's dry. Don't "soak" the wood when raising the grain, just damp, and even, is plenty.
This is how "I" do it. There are many fine builders here, and I'm sure you will get more input. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can replace the "feel" you get when working with each individual piece of wood. And, you have to "feel" it, you can't tell by looking at it.
Respectfully, Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

When I was at Dizon;s I saw Allen Martin using a double edged razor blade looking thing..... It did a good job.

I would bet it was a cabinet scraper. Gives a more finished surface than sandpaper, but, like anything else, takes a bit of practice and skill. Work great on powderhorns, too.

 

[Slowpoke]

I'm to the final sand stage now. I raised the grain after 4 different grits of sandpaper. I just finished the 600 and ran a damp paper towel over it and still have areas of burrs. Tomorrow I'm going over it again with 600. Have you ever used a rotten stone? Ever used emory cloth as a final rub over? I'm getting ready to carve this thing and don;t want to run into any trouble.

S'Poke

 

[Zonie]

I guess my thoughts about raising the grain are in response to what I feel is causing the grain to stand up.
IMO, there is some stress in what I call the wood fiber bundles and when the fiber bundles are cut with the sandpaper (or by scraping) these fibers are free to move wherever they want too. Adding water serves to allow the fibers to follow their own whims more rapidly.

Having said this, I don't worry about raising the grain until I have the stock fully sanded to the final 220 grit level of finishing.
I want to then cut off the errant fibers cleanly without mashing them down or cutting into new undamaged bundles. (In my experiance, if the fibers are mashed down with dull paper, they will return later.)
Because of this, I use new, unused 220 grit paper VERY Lightly sanding against the direction the fibers are pointing and never across the grain. I am trying to only remove the whiskers and to not cut uncut bundles.
You can feel the fibers direction by rubbing the back of your hand along the stock. One direction will feel rougher because the grains are pointed in that general direction.

I do this whiskering operation two or three times before proceeding on to the finer grades of sandpaper.
The first time at the 220 grit level, I wet the wood because I want the entire surface to move as much as it's going to. The second and all subsequent "wettings" are more like dampening than wetting.
I apply the water with a wet sponge followed by a dry sponge to remove the excess water.
I have found that open grain woods like Walnut often require more whiskering than Maple.

IMO the finer grades of sandpaper are used just to remove the surface scratches left by the rougher paper. For that reason, very little wood is removed so the number of fiber bundles which are cut are much fewer.
Because fewer bundles are cut, the need to wet and whisker is also reduced often to only once. This depends on the wood. Each board even if cut from the same tree, is different from the next and each will require adjusting how many times whiskering is needed. Let the wood tell you.
If you are getting almost no whiskers, or very few, you are done.

As for the grit of paper to work down to, because wood is a porous material, I feel using anything finer than 320 is just wasteing time. At this stage of whiskering, even water/alcohol stains will not raise the grain enough to worry about.
The rubbed in oil coats will burnish the wood down to the final "baby bottom smooth" condition most of us are after.


I haven't seen a great deal of difference between using a hair dryer or just letting the wood dry naturally.

 

[RussB]

Slowpoke, Rottenstone is a powder. A very fine...+/-... 1400 grit that has an abrasive action for "polishing" and used both with and against the grain. Normally it is used in conjunction with a finish such as Tru-Oil.
I keep my rottenstone in a salt shaker for ease of application. After final sanding and a good "rub", I apply my finish, such as Tru-Oil, to a piece of T-Shirt that I have saturated. I then sprinkle the rotten stone on a spot on the stock I am going to work. I work the finish and rottenstone into a "paste" that I continually add to until I have finished the whole stock.
The reason you use it this way is to fill every pore in the wood and give a deep glass like finish. Rottenstone does make for a beautiful finish, but it takes a bit of experience to get used to. After using rottenstone I rub the stock down[url] good...again[/url], with the burlap. Makes for a fery fine, high gloss finish...if that is what the customer is looking for. You can get itfrom Brownells, and it's not very expensive. The stock below has finish base from rottestone, I'm cleaning the checkering (22 LPI)that was added after the finish...Not a good way to do things.
Russ

 

[RussB]

Slowpoke, First off, I do realize this is a Muzzleloading forum, and has absolutely nothing to with the picture I showed you. However, I was trying to show how "glossy" or "shinny", along with the "depth" you can get from using rottenstone in combination with a good "rub".
This is not appropriate for "most" muzzleloaders, unless it's your own, and you "just wanta do it"! I have a Hawken I did in rottenstone, I also polished the brass using 1200 paste on a 16 x 3" wheel...It would knock your eyes out! However, after the "guys" quit rolling on the ground, laughing their butts off at me, I intentionally scuffed it up a bit. I will show you some pictures sometime, it was a killer!
Zonie...I would like to hear your experience with rottenstone. Most stock makers don't care for it, it's popularity seems to "wax & wane", and trends seems to come and go. Some feel it is to hard and you get surface cracks. However, I personally like it, now that I've learned how to use it, and will continue using it on my own guns. I've had a lot of customers change their minds once they've seen my finishes. In view of all I just said, I will try to show you another of my creations, this one is my own style for a mdl.700 with 18 LPI checkering...which is what I prefer.
My "picture taking" leaves a lot to be desired, hopefully you can get the gist of what I've been trying to say. And, above all else...I AM NOT TRYING TO SELL ANYTHING! I am retired, (or retarded) and that's the way I like it!
Hope this comes out okay.

It's not exactly what I was seeing on the screen, but I think you can see the "depth", or "wet look" I was refering to.
Respectfully, Russ

 

[Zonie]

RussB: I've used Rottenstone to rub out Deft coatings (a type of lacquer) on some furniture and Stereo Cabinets years ago but I have not tried it on any of my rifles. As I recall, I still have most of the 1/2 pound box of it sitting around somewhere.

My thoughts on Rottenstone are:

It is ultrafine polishing material and is soft enough that it won't scratch the surface.

It must be used with oil and it takes a LOT of work to make it work.

It is a total pain in the A$$ because it is such a fine powder that it gets into and onto almost everything in sight, including the user.
It is so fine it gets into the pores of your skin and takes multiple washings to get clean.
The only abrasive I've found that is worse about this is powdered Ferrous Oxide (rust) that I used on a 6 inch parabolic telescope mirror I built years ago.

So with all of these positive statements, what do I use to polish out the True Oil on my stocks to a mirror finish?
Wrights Silver Polish. It's relatively clean, it polishes as well and you can steal if from under the kitchen counter.
:: It doesn't get into places where you don't want it and it cleans up easily with water.

 

[RussB]

Yep! Seems like you have a firm grasp on what rottenstone is all about. Lots of work, and one heck of a mess!

Respectfully, Russ