Reasons for "fliers"?

[Skychief]

Shot one of my caplock, 45's this afternoon, benched at 50 yards.

I was searching for its most accurate load, as I've never been completely satisfied that I have found it.

Long story shorter, I had several fine groups ruined by a flier within 5 shots.

Low, left, high, right (no pattern there).

I paid attention to my swabbing, loading, sight picture, technique, etc, etc.

Patching all looked great.

The ruined groups hovered around an inch, while the fliers were 2-3" off.

Also, this occurred with swaged and cast balls.

Talk about aggravating...

Penny for your thoughts, Skychief.

 

[azmntman]

air bubble in balls :idunno:

 

[wattlebuster]

Maybe wind or maybe some of the balls weigh just a tad different :idunno:

 

[Zonie]

This phenomenon is quite common.

Sometimes it can be due to careless loading techniques like uneven compression of the patched ball on the powder, not paying attention to measuring a consistent powder load, varying patch thicknesses or even changing the amount of lube that's used on the patch.

A small, unseen gust of wind can also deflect the flight of the ball.

Most often though it is due to a upset spirit who cannot stand the idea that man can repeatably shoot 5 shots into a 1 inch circle at 50 yards. :rotf:

 

[Artificer]

Out of each five shot group, was there any pattern to which shot went off as a flyer? IOW, was it the last shot most times or maybe the third of fourth shot most times?

Was there any difference in:

1. How you rested the gun for each shot?

2. How you gripped or applied pressure to the stock?

3. Where you lay your cheek on the rifle?

4. How you put the stock into your shoulder or if a crescent buttplate, the position of the buttplate on your arm?

5. In your follow through, did you notice a difference in where the sights were on the shots that were flyers?

Gus

 

[Skychief]

Dad-gum gremlins! I'm starting to believe in them. :hmm:

I grabbed my little Seneca toward the end of the session and shot it off of the bench.

Yep, sure enough, two 5-shot groups that were nearly ragged holes.

It almost makes me want to :surrender: !!!

Being driven almost bananas is part of the charm I suppose.

I've never had a more vexing rifle in my life.

Thanks for the replies all, Skychief

PS- there was just a slight breeze this afternoon. :idunno:

 

[bubba.50]

the man who figgers out how to keep from havin' fliers could become rich travelin' the country givin' seminars on the prevention of said fliers. of course, he'd be so busy he'd never have time to shoot his own guns anymore.

 

[Big Hammer]

That man won't get rich. People won't want to pay him for the information, plus , when he starts to explain to them what the problem(s) are, they will want to argue about it. Trust me.

 

[tenngun]

"All your skill is of no avail if an angel urinates in your touch hole"....Its a well establish fact that a demon can only ride a rifle ball and steer it on its way. Some times he is asleep at the wheel, some times just feeling a 'little devilish'

 

[Semisane]

Was there any difference in:

1. How you rested the gun for each shot?

2. How you gripped or applied pressure to the stock?

3. Where you lay your cheek on the rifle?

Gus

YEP! Those are the ones that sneak in unnoticed.

 

[Skychief]

In answer to questions 1-4, I would say no.

In answer to #5, I did have one called flier as the light trigger let loose a bit prematurely. :slap:

I didn't have a spotting scope, and walked up to see where shots hit quite randomly, so, I can't say if any pattern exist of which of the 5 shots were "fliers". Next time I will make note of each shots placement.

Do you have any hypothesis, if perhaps it's a certain shot within the string?

I appreciate your questions and input. :hatsoff:

Best regards, Skychief

 

[bpd303]

Just about every flier I experience, is related to me and I can usually call them. The most common are attributed to trigger pull.

 

[Pete G]

Usually most fliers are caused by the gun's attachment to the ground.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

A sub-optimal load, in regards to the barrel harmonics, also leads to flyers. One can read up on Dan Newbury's 'optimal charge weight' method for loading ... to see the theory behind it, but ehhhh ... it wasn't designed for BP arms.

But, harmonics means that the barrel is moving/ vibrating, like a sine wave, with a low & high point and steep curve in-between. Ideally you want the shot to exit when the muzzle is at the top or bottom of that curve, as that point has the LEAST inherent vertical dispersion.

In other words, that node is where the barrel is most tolerant of minor load variations. I can tell you that my precision shooting (and reloads) have greatly improved when using this technique, like 1/2" groups at 200-yards. But I digress ...

FWIW, here is a similar example shot using my 54" barreled Fusil de Boucanier. Note, it is very common to identify more than one 'node' (ideal powder charge range for that barrel/load combination) as shown in the pictures within this post. See: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...post/1295982/hl/Load+development/fromsearch/1/

 

[Artificer]

I didn't have a spotting scope, and walked up to see where shots hit quite randomly, so, I can't say if any pattern exist of which of the 5 shots were "fliers". Next time I will make note of each shots placement.

Good, because that may help identify a problem, especially if the flyer is often the same or similar order in the number of the shots fired.

Do you have any hypothesis, if perhaps it's a certain shot within the string?

I appreciate your questions and input. :hatsoff:

Best regards, Skychief

Having shot a lot off benches over the years to test guns I built, I have probably made most every mistake humanly possible. :redface:

A first round flier is almost always because you are not properly "settled in" when you begin shooting a group OR because you are holding the gun to get it to shoot where you want, rather than resting it where it naturally will align the sights on the part of the target you want.

To combat this and before I take a shot, I get settled in and when everything feels "right," I close my eyes and then open them to see where the sights are on the target. If they are not where I want them to be and they are off for elevation, I mechanically adjust my screw adjustable front rest and or move the sandbag under the butt of the gun, or some part of my body, or some of any or all of the above. If the sights are off for windage, I move the gun and or my body (and chair as necessary). Then I once again get comfortably settled on the gun, close my eyes and open them again to see where the sights are now. Once the sights line up "naturally," then and only then do I begin shooting. This is sort of a bench rest version of getting your "natural point of aim" in the offhand. Since we almost always have to take a ML gun off the bench to reload it, it is necessary to do this before every shot in a group and will also help with flyers in the middle or end the string of shots. I can guarantee you that this technique WILL make your groups tighter.

Often a last round flyer is the result of getting a bit excited about a good group and rushing or jerking the shot. If anything when you have a good four shots, SLOW DOWN and concentrate a little more for the last shot and be extra cautious that you don't rush the last shot. You can take that to an extreme, though, and don't want to take TOO much time or lack of oxygen from holding your breath may cause a flyer or cause you to look like you had a heart attack from having to suck so much air after the shot is fired. I've got a great personal story on the latter, but it involves tying an all time record with a modern rifle.

Also, it would be GREAT if you could have someone watch you while you shoot the string of 5 shots. Sometimes we do something we don't even realize we are doing, but it can be noticed by an observer. I can't tell you how many times I diagnosed accuracy and function problems by closely watching people shoot over the years.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

A sub-optimal load, in regards to the barrel harmonics, also leads to flyers. One can read up on Dan Newbury's 'optimal charge weight' method for loading ... to see the theory behind it, but ehhhh ... it wasn't designed for BP arms.

But, harmonics means that the barrel is moving/ vibrating, like a sine wave, with a low & high point and steep curve in-between. Ideally you want the shot to exit when the muzzle is at the top or bottom of that curve, as that point has the LEAST inherent vertical dispersion.

In other words, that node is where the barrel is most tolerant of minor load variations.

:thumbsup: Yes, Yes, YES and a thousand times YES!!! :hatsoff:

I learned back in the early 70's that virtually every ML rifle will have two such accuracy nodes. One is usually a light target load and the other is with more powder for a hunting load.

Gus

 

[kaintuck]

Did you weigh your balls?

Dutch's shooting system reviewed? :surrender:

Could be too much coffee...... :hmm:

Ahhhhh.....the quest for one raggy hole EVERY time we shoot..... :surrender:

Tomtom said this.....

 

[Artificer]

A couple more things.

In modern slow fire competition shooting, one thing that is taught is to try to get as many rounds downrange while environmental conditions are as good as possible. IF during a long slow fire string the wind gusts or a cloud seriously darkens the sky or something like that, shooters are also taught to try to wait until the original conditions come back. Much of this can be used when trying to fire the best groups with a muzzleloader as well.

For example, if a gusting wind blows up or a moving cloud temporarily darkens the area you are shooting in, wait until after it calms down or the cloud passes to shoot the next shot in your group.

Oh and FWIW, I NEVER count a shot I made a mistake on as part of a group. So I might shoot an extra shot to make up for one I made a mistake on or I may decide to start afresh on another target. It is good to remember that when we shoot for groups, we are concerned about mechanical accuracy of the rifle with the load we are shooting and not how we sometimes make mistakes and screw up what would have been a good group.

Gus

 

[Billnpatti]

Thnis is an extremely good source for solving muzzleloading problems such as yours. I highly recommend it.
www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

 

[longcruise]

Answer is simple. Those aren't fliers!

The combination of you, that rifle and that load shoots a 3 to 4" group. Did you average at least four five shot groups? That will give you a better idea of how the combo is shooting.

Better yet, put up your target and shoot a five shot group on it. Then put an identical target up exactly over the top of it and shoot another five shot group. Do that until you have four or five groups on the bottom most target. Peel it back and have a look. What you will see is the actual accuracy potential of the combo. Now, your "fliers" are just a part of your 20 to 25 shot group!

If it's not satisfactory, then you need to start over with a different load. And on and on! After you have shot several hundred shots with eight or so different combos, you will have a pretty good idea of what it shoots best with. Then you can start to fine tune it! :haha: