Red Stain

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lacerote

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I have a beautiful Nicholas Hawk style flinter that I had the maker stain a deep red color , similar to the old Violin stains of the time . He made the stain himself. I now want another rifle I am having built by another maker to be stained also in this deep red Color. Is their a comercial stain available that might fit the bill or do any of you have any suggestions for making some up? My Gunmaker has not gotten quite to the staining stage yet but has not found what I want so far. If you want to see the gun as it is being made look at[url] custommuzzleloaderworks.com[/url] Skip the intro and click on the journal and you can see it being made step by step, a great idea for a maker I think as well as the customer . Tim says he has had 10,000 hits so far.
 
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Laurel Mountain Forge has several different colors of stain and sealer with varnish. The whole system works great and is made special for gunstocks. They have a cherry stain that sounds exactly like want you want. I mix a little cherry stain with the sealer and the varnish. A little of this stain goes a long ways. It IS red. Track of the Wolf sells it as does many other Black Powder suppliers.
Don
 
I wanted this one as a high art piece , so it is complex by design. The work looks exeptional however and it is exactly what I wanted.
 
one of the old stains was i think i can remember, potasium permagnimate?, i think.. cant remember, its been years.. it is an old style stain.. turns your fingers purple, turns wood a deep dark red/purple.. test before you do whole peice... it was also used for some kind of skin disorder a doctor told me.. your hands will be purple for weeks.. im not sure what stain it is called and youl have fun finding it, but im guessing that is what it is called... i was a professional cabinet maker for 23 years, and went on to other things about 5 years ago, so its been some time.. you can go over it with a modern dark stain that has the correct base to make it darker and more to your liking.. the old stain is water base and youl have fun learning how to use that as it raises the grain.. sand, wet, sand wet, sand, wet until no riased grain, stain and try boneing it, or rub out with hands.. if grain raised sand and restain etc... .. dave
 
Use what you want to, but PP isn't a very durable stain. It fades and wears rapidly with use. It's good in combination with other staining methodes. It can give walnut an excellent color. :thumbsup:
 
Thanks , good to know, then that must not be what is on my rifle as it has not faded a bit , maybe he mixed it with something else. I am also looking into the actual stains used for violins.
 
i have some metal left over to make some red i have a sample of....it's number 7 or 8....the color samples are in sunlight and inside....let me know if this is what yer looking fer....ya can email me from my profile yer address and i can send ya some....and i can give ya directions on how to do it....the samples are of a grade 4 maple....hope thats what yer wood is....let me know what color red is good fer ya.........bob

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Violins (and Lehigh rifles) were not actually stained red. They were colored red through the use of red varnish.

I have seen several original Lehigh and Berks county rifles with the remnants of a VERY red varnish on the surface of the wood. Some were stained with aqua fortis underneath, probably more were left unstained.

I've been experimenting with red varnish, and I have some now ready for use on a Lehigh gun I am almost done with. You can fill the grain with a seedlac/shellac or use a linseed oil varnish for the grain filler. I think the oil varnish looks better for the grain filler when the wood is unstained. The colored varnish (made of linseed oil varnish with transparent red pigment "mulled" into it...it is basically transparent red paint) is rubbed on in thin coats on the surface only. Here is a photo of an experimental stock finished this way.

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The colorant used here is about half transparent red iron oxide and half crimson alizarin (the synthetic version of natural madder, though the color is too bright..). The red iron oxide (make SURE it is "transparent") is more a brown-red color by itself.
 
Fatdutchman this was the info I was looking for specifically . I knew the color was in the finish as their was a very similar article written in the CLA magazine last year but I lost it . Did you write that article ? I have passed this on to my builder and asked him to join the group and view the picture. Thanks again . By the way would you want to sell some of your red varnish ? if so please contact me [email protected]
 
Don't know if this is any good to anyone, but a collegue who restores violins and furniture swears by it :)

Petes Shellac finish restorer
250ml gum turpentine
250ml white vinegar
15oml methylated spirit
150ml boiled linseed
1/2-1 cubic inch red sealing wax
Warm turpentine and wax over a LOW heat until wax dissolves, then blend with other ingredients.

3-5 coats to restore a damaged surface, 20 coats plus on raw wood to get a finish.
 
Actually, the colored varnish is best mixed up at the time of use.

I have been using my own boiled linseed oil varnish that I made. I don't really have enough made up right now to sell any. The recipe goes as follows: get one deep fryer thing with a closed element (little or no risk of flame up), get one that will go as hot as possible with a manual heat control. Put in 1 pt. of "store bought" "Boiled" linseed oil and boil it for about 2 hours at a slow rolling boil. Put 6 oz of Rosin in a glass container and pour in about a cup of turpentine and let it sit and soften up while the oil is boiling. Add it to the oil when desired and boil it a bit more. Now, I have been adding about a teaspoon or less of lead carbonate as the drier. On my next varnish making project, I am going to use raw linseed oil and no lead carbonate. It should work out perfectly fine and be totally non toxic to boot. Anyway, when finished boiling, let it sit a while to cool off some (though you still want it warm, but not hot) then pour it into glass mason jars and that's it. This makes a "plain brown varnish". You can substitute some Mastic for the rosin, or some sandarac. Both were common resins used. I have made varnish with 4 oz of rosin and 2 oz of mastic before. I don't know if it really makes any difference. Rosin is cheap enough.

The coloring can be done with any oil type of varnish, I suppose, but they may or may not behave correctly when applying the "paint", that is, a lot of modern varnishes get tacky too quickly. I rub the varnish on the stock very thinly with my hand. You can get the pigments from[url] www.Kremer-pigmente.de[/url] They only cost a few dollars. Their American office and store is in NYC. You WILL need a "muller"...a glass pestle type thing and a marble plate. Kremer has a nice muller. It's about 48 bucks, but you have to have one to do this. They also have good instructions on mulling paint. You basically put a small amount of pigment on the marble slab, add a small amount of oil and grind the oil into the pigment.

Oh, yes, very important, Linseed oil varnishes absolutely, positively, NEED sunlight to dry. It will dry in a few hours in the sun, whereas it could sit in a warm dry room for YEARS and not dry!!!

You can get synthetic alizarin, but the colors are too bright. They also have real madder, but it is expensive. You can, of course, "precipitate" out your own natural alizarin from madder roots, but I haven't cared to delve that deeply just yet...
There was a historically used transparent red earth pigment which is no longer generally available. The modern substitute is a transparent red iron oxide (which is essentially the same thing, only arrived at synthetically). This is the one I think looks best, and is a nice brownish red color. Not as "RED!!!" as the varnish on the stock above. There is a different natural transparent red earth still available. I can't remember exactly what it is....English transparent burnt sienna? This one is more brown though.

There are also transparent browns and yellows, both were used in violin varnishes as well. Again, just make SURE you are getting transparent pigments, otherwise, you're just making plain paint.

There also are colored spirit varnishes, but I have never cared to use a spirit varnish as a top coat. They are easier to color, however. Look up "violin varnish" on the internet, and you will find an immense amount of information.

You can see also on the stock above that the curl shows through the "paint" quite nicely, even though the curl on this stock is not that "strong". The color does not really hide the grain much, if at all.

Oh, yes, another thing, don't try to fill the grain with the colored varnish. Trust me, it doesn't look good! It doesn't impart any appreciable amount of color to the stock, plus, it fills the pores with red specks which you can definitely see. NOT attractive.
 
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Oh, yes, very important, Linseed oil varnishes absolutely, positively, NEED sunlight to dry.
In addendum - it's the UV rays that do the job, during the winter or other times when sunlight is at a minimum a UV can be a great aid - google UV lamp for sources...
or you could move to the high country - at 6500 ASL here in the SW Rockies the sun is ALWAYS intense.......... :grin:
 
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