Reproduction & Original.

[Certus]

Hi,
I live in the UK and following the ban on the ownership of breech loading pistols and revolvers here in 1997 I started shooting reproduction muzzle loading revolvers in order to continue with the sport I love.
I must admit that once I got myself organised, I really enjoyed shooting these old style revolvers and hardly missed my Smith & Wesson 686 from earlier days.
During the current Corona Virus lockdown I started spending too much time on the internet and often found myself browsing auctions and antique gun dealers looking at original examples of the Uberti reproduction Remington 1858 revolver I now shoot on a regular basis.
Although original firearms from this period are not cheap, I eventually found this Remington New Model Navy which was not only within my price range but was also described as being in usable condition.
Although I wasn't able to actually view the revolver before buying, I received lots of pictures and it was exactly in the condition described when it actually arrived. I have since had plenty of time to strip and thoroughly inspect the mechanics etc and have found the timing and lock-up to still be precise and surprisingly, there remains quite a lot of rifling remaining in the barrel for a gun made in 1864.
Although original firearms of this period can be bought without licensing in the UK, reproductions must be recorded on a Firearms Certificate and originals must also be entered on the certificate should you wish shoot them.
Outdoor ranges have just reopened again here in the UK and I'm now deciding if I should leave the old Remington in well earned retirement or start shooting it again albeit sparingly and with light loads.
What do you think ?

 

[Kansas Jake]

I would shoot it occasionally with modest loads. I wouldn't make it my regular piece, but would still have to enjoy it once in a while.

 

[cositrike]

Hi,
I live in the UK and following the ban on the ownership of breech loading pistols and revolvers here in 1997 I started shooting reproduction muzzle loading revolvers in order to continue with the sport I love.
I must admit that once I got myself organised, I really enjoyed shooting these old style revolvers and hardly missed my Smith & Wesson 686 from earlier days.
During the current Corona Virus lockdown I started spending too much time on the internet and often found myself browsing auctions and antique gun dealers looking at original examples of the Uberti reproduction Remington 1858 revolver I now shoot on a regular basis.
Although original firearms from this period are not cheap, I eventually found this Remington New Model Navy which was not only within my price range but was also described as being in usable condition.
Although I wasn't able to actually view the revolver before buying, I received lots of pictures and it was exactly in the condition described when it actually arrived. I have since had plenty of time to strip and thoroughly inspect the mechanics etc and have found the timing and lock-up to still be precise and surprisingly, there remains quite a lot of rifling remaining in the barrel for a gun made in 1864.
Although original firearms of this period can be bought without licensing in the UK, reproductions must be recorded on a Firearms Certificate and originals must also be entered on the certificate should you wish shoot them.
Outdoor ranges have just reopened again here in the UK and I'm now deciding if I should leave the old Remington in well earned retirement or start shooting it again albeit sparingly and with light loads.
What do you think ?View attachment 35384

Guns are for shooting, not for looking at. Get some powder and ball through it!

 

[TFoley]

Certus, I'm pretty lucky - I have a shooting pal who has an interesting collection of Victorian-era handguns - and earlier - so I get to shoot these REAL guns with their original loads - within reason, of course. He shoots HIS NMA with just 18gr of 3Fg, and it is VERY accurate, too and has minimum recoil. The satisfaction, of course, comes from shooting a genuine piece of history - something that no replicate can, uh, replicate.

You've outlined the constraints under which we all operate here on mainland UK, and although I get castigated for doing so, I'll just reinforce that comment by adding that having to have a genuine antique registered on your Firearms Certificate [FAC] is not simply a matter of adding it on - it has to be applied for, and duly authorised before you can fire a single shot, and thereafter treated exactly like any other modern-made replica or run-of-the-mill firearm.

It costs money and it takes some time - in Essex, for instance, up to FORTY-TWO WEEKS.

Nothing, Friends, is made easy for us here.

 

[jdw276]

Is the original 1864 serial numbered? I know what i would do over here.

 

[Zonie]

According to the Dixie Gun Work's catalog, 2011, on page 651 it says Remington New Model Army (.44 caliber) pistols sold to the military between 1863 and 1875 had serial numbers that ranged from 15,000 thru 147,000.
During the same period the Remington New Model Navy (.36 caliber) sold to the military had serial numbers that ranged from 23,000 thru 45,000.

 

[jdw276]

According to the Dixie Gun Work's catalog, 2011, on page 651 it says Remington New Model Army (.44 caliber) pistols sold to the military between 1863 and 1875 had serial numbers that ranged from 15,000 thru 147,000.
During the same period the Remington New Model Navy (.36 caliber) sold to the military had serial numbers that ranged from 23,000 thru 45,000.

Well there goes that theory in my mind. Not worth the risk to me.

 

[Zonie]

If it matters, don't tell anyone official about this but, I understand that at least one of the European countries say the people who live there can own a gun without a lot of paperwork if it was made before 1860.
Some of the people who live there think that qualifies the Remington's as being legal to own because it is commonly called by many, a "1858".

That 1858 date is the date of the patent for some of the Remington's features. The pistol actually didn't go into production until 1861 which is after the 1860 cut-off date so it really is not legal to own without the legal paperwork.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I would shoot the thing with standard loads. Why the heck not?
It's not going to thank you for nothing is it really.
Nice find

 

[TFoley]

If it matters, don't tell anyone official about this but, I understand that at least one of the European countries say the people who live there can own a gun without a lot of paperwork if it was made before 1860.
Some of the people who live there think that qualifies the Remington's as being legal to own because it is commonly called by many, a "1858".

That 1858 date is the date of the patent for some of the Remington's features. The pistol actually didn't go into production until 1861 which is after the 1860 cut-off date so it really is not legal to own without the legal paperwork.

Zonie, here in UK we can own ANY antique firearm so long as it does NOT shoot a currently available cartridge, or we don't want to shoot it. If you want to shoot it, then it has to be on your FAC. And ALL replicas capable of firing have to be on your FAC, muzzleloaders or not.

Up until recently, you could legally buy a single-shot muzzleloader in Germany if you were over 18 y/o, but all that changed.

 

[jimhallam]

Hi
If you want to shoot it do as TFoley says -- - put it on ticket --- but shoot repros more often, to preserve the finite number of historical items for the next generation. Surrey Branch MLAGB have been running a series of "Repeating Pistol Meetings" for a number of years now. These allow the widest range of firearms (everything from originals through to the smokeless conversions and even the latest designs.) ***
We want to promote any sort of shooting which is still allowed, which is why we allow offhand (one-handed) and "supported" (2 handed) -- separate Matches, of course, and try to keep the traditional, pre-WW1 more dynamic courses of fire going.

Sadly many people who replaced their S&Ws, M1911s etc with ML revolvers found the "best 10 ex 13 in 30minutes" MLAIC Precision course not to their liking, and the majority dropped out after a short time,
We have a wide range of Courses of Fire, basically 3 series of 5 shots on one target --- SLOW (3 minutes per series), TIMED (1 minute/series), RAPID (30seconds), "BOBBER" (a 19thC term -- turning target facing for 5s, away for 10), "SURRENDEN" (another 19th C term, named after Walter Winans' house) -- fired against the clock, with the number of complete seconds subtracted from the target score) ... ...
We have three basic classes --- (a) "Standard" -- a 19thC design with no later improvements; (b) "Target" -- offhand only, adjustable sights etc, and (c) "Free" -- allowing 2-handed hold and any percussion design.
We also added "Modern Muzzle-loader" for "handguns" which look anything like the ones taken away from us.

***[Zonie -- I KNOW about the forum rules but over here when the "ban" came in after the Dunblane Massacre we lost so many people from the Clubs that pistol-shooting was almost destroyed. Since then new DA designs have been produced by British gunsmiths such as Alan Westlake (Google him) and they have got more people back into the sport. You are lucky in the USA to have been able to preserve your rights and traditions and therefore can afford to be more "purist", but even Stateside it is clear that certain factions want to take them away. I recall that a few years ago there was a move in MD to remove "antiques" from free ownership because someone was shot with a Colt M1851 repro.]

In the UK we have to abide by the Laws -- even the stupid ones -- even if we disagree with them. Firearm- and Shotgun-Certificate holders are demonstrably the most law-abiding people but the politicians and the antis will always be trying to score points from their agenda.

At least WE (the Surrey Branch of the Muzzle-Loaders' Association of Great Britain) have done our bit to try to keep things going,

best wishes to all in these weird times,
Jim Hallam

 

[Certus]

Hi
If you want to shoot it do as TFoley says -- - put it on ticket --- but shoot repros more often, to preserve the finite number of historical items for the next generation. Surrey Branch MLAGB have been running a series of "Repeating Pistol Meetings" for a number of years now. These allow the widest range of firearms (everything from originals through to the smokeless conversions and even the latest designs.) ***
We want to promote any sort of shooting which is still allowed, which is why we allow offhand (one-handed) and "supported" (2 handed) -- separate Matches, of course, and try to keep the traditional, pre-WW1 more dynamic courses of fire going.

Sadly many people who replaced their S&Ws, M1911s etc with ML revolvers found the "best 10 ex 13 in 30minutes" MLAIC Precision course not to their liking, and the majority dropped out after a short time,
We have a wide range of Courses of Fire, basically 3 series of 5 shots on one target --- SLOW (3 minutes per series), TIMED (1 minute/series), RAPID (30seconds), "BOBBER" (a 19thC term -- turning target facing for 5s, away for 10), "SURRENDEN" (another 19th C term, named after Walter Winans' house) -- fired against the clock, with the number of complete seconds subtracted from the target score) ... ...
We have three basic classes --- (a) "Standard" -- a 19thC design with no later improvements; (b) "Target" -- offhand only, adjustable sights etc, and (c) "Free" -- allowing 2-handed hold and any percussion design.
We also added "Modern Muzzle-loader" for "handguns" which look anything like the ones taken away from us.

***[Zonie -- I KNOW about the forum rules but over here when the "ban" came in after the Dunblane Massacre we lost so many people from the Clubs that pistol-shooting was almost destroyed. Since then new DA designs have been produced by British gunsmiths such as Alan Westlake (Google him) and they have got more people back into the sport. You are lucky in the USA to have been able to preserve your rights and traditions and therefore can afford to be more "purist", but even Stateside it is clear that certain factions want to take them away. I recall that a few years ago there was a move in MD to remove "antiques" from free ownership because someone was shot with a Colt M1851 repro.]

In the UK we have to abide by the Laws -- even the stupid ones -- even if we disagree with them. Firearm- and Shotgun-Certificate holders are demonstrably the most law-abiding people but the politicians and the antis will always be trying to score points from their agenda.

At least WE (the Surrey Branch of the Muzzle-Loaders' Association of Great Britain) have done our bit to try to keep things going,

best wishes to all in these weird times,
Jim Hallam

Hello Jim,
The nitro-conversion revolver I own is based on the Uberti 1858 NMA and is still a muzzle loader although it obviously does not use the traditional propellant. I really only shoot it on occasions when the weather isn't ideal for shooting outdoors. I much prefer shooting on outdoor ranges and using reproduction revolvers has led me to doing quite a lot of research into their history and eventually to the acquisition of the original Remington New Model Navy.
I also have an original Colt 1840 Pocket revolver, but would only be interested in shooting something that would combine historical interest with a hope of achieving some reasonable results.
As I have an old Uberti Navy which I don't really use much now and being the same .36 calibre as the Remington might be worth submission for a one on, one off variation on my FAC.
Regards
Brian

 

[LawrenceA]

You have to shoot it.
I have a Remington New Army dated 1862 but the laws here prevent me from using it at all.
I would love to just put a few rounds through mine.
FYI - If it is military issue then it will have inspectors marks on the major parts and you may be able to see the remains of the large cartouche on the grips.

 

[Heelerau]

A late mate used to shoot his original, no harm done, I would shoot it without hesitation. They like being woken up.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Wow, that's an amazing find sir, and I love the pic of the original next to the reproduction. I do not own any of these pistols yet--I'm a flint guy so far.

But boy, if I had that original, I would HAVE to shoot it at least a little! I'd shoot with lighter loads so as not to stress it too much, but I'd definitely have that thing at the range at least once a year for good measure!

 

[Certus]

You have to shoot it.
I have a Remington New Army dated 1862 but the laws here prevent me from using it at all.
I would love to just put a few rounds through mine.
FYI - If it is military issue then it will have inspectors marks on the major parts and you may be able to see the remains of the large cartouche on the grips.

Hi,
I bought a very good book entitled "Remington Army and Navy Revolvers 1861-1888" by Donald L Ware which contains a wealth of information regarding the development of these early revolvers. The Ser No reference dates this particular revolver to one of the last batches delivered to the Navy in December 1864. The revolver has Remington stage inspection letters stamped in the usual places, but no martial stamping or cartouche which according to the book, was normal for Navy models delivered during the Civil War.
Brian

 

[LawrenceA]

The revolver has Remington stage inspection letters stamped in the usual places, but no martial stamping or cartouche which according to the book, was normal for Navy models delivered during the Civil War.

Thanks Brian I have learnt something new.

 

[Marinekayak]

I don't want to hijack a thread or start a conversation about unmentionables but I'm curious. I competed at Bisley and the Scottish nationals in the 80's in small bore rifle and toured the country shooting. I remember we used to lock our firearms up at the local post office when not shooting. I see a lot of UK members jumped in on this thread. If one of you could PM me. Is small-bore competition still viable in the UK?

 

[TFoley]

I don't want to hijack a thread or start a conversation about unmentionables but I'm curious. I competed at Bisley and the Scottish nationals in the 80's in small bore rifle and toured the country shooting. I remember we used to lock our firearms up at the local post office when not shooting. I see a lot of UK members jumped in on this thread. If one of you could PM me. Is small-bore competition still viable in the UK?

I'll PM you now, but tell you that there are well over 1500 gun clubs in the UK, and many of the types of comps we used to have on the MAINLAND for the now-banned cartridge handguns are re-arranged for longer guns.

The UK is up there in the world ranking and at every other level, in small-bore competition. Two members of Team GB are actually in my own club. Small-bore is alive and kicking, hence the £20Million Lord Roberts Centre of Excellence at Bisley, which is the home of the NSRA - National Small-bore Rifle Assocation.

In any event, a look at any of the thousands of movies on Youtube would have given you an answer...

 

[Relic shooter]

Hi Certus, welcome from Idaho ! Nice clean Remington you have there !!
I also shoot primarily original flint & perc. firearms including a couple of 58 Remington old armies.
I can honestly state that after 50 years of shooting & cleaning these guns they are in far better shape than firearms that have been used as wall hangers.
I've enclosed a photo of my Remington mfg. in 1863 that has a silver cone front sight. Remington only made a few of these as they discovered that this style of sight didn't hold up well in rough service conditions so went with a
steel front sights that were sturdier.

I

English & European firearms have been my favorite shooters for competition as the workmanship, metallurgy , fit & finish was superior than some of of our early American made firearms. There are certainly exceptions to the above, but few that are within the weight that you would want to pack in the field hunting. Please keep in mind that this is just this old fart's opinion