Researching 1816 Springfield conversions

[Stantheman86]

I just spent 2 hours reading an online book on Flintlock to Percussion conversions , because I would like to put a period correct rear sight on my Pedersoli 1816 Springfield percussion conversion.

I already bought the Lodgewood H&P sight but it has a dovetail.

Basically according to my reading, to sum it up:

Some 1816s were rifled but not sighted
Or Were sighted but not rifled
Or received both

The type of rear sight , if applied, may vary depending on who did the conversion. Some were 1861 Springfield sights. Some weren't rifled but had ladder sights like the 1842 . It seems that they kinda put them together just to get the contracts complete.

The book says many rear sight had the spanner screw soldered to the sight then the threaded shaft filed off, the whole sight was then soldered to the barrel.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my H&P sight, but using JB Weld since it is essentially a "cold solder". I'm assuming I'll have file the dovetail block down.

Or just holding on to that sight and using the Lodgewood "non dovetail solder on" Ladder sight they sell for the 1842 muskets and Mississippi conversions.

 

[Artificer]

I just spent 2 hours reading an online book on Flintlock to Percussion conversions , because I would like to put a period correct rear sight on my Pedersoli 1816 Springfield percussion conversion.

I already bought the Lodgewood H&P sight but it has a dovetail.

Basically according to my reading, to sum it up:

Some 1816s were rifled but not sighted
Or Were sighted but not rifled
Or received both

The type of rear sight , if applied, may vary depending on who did the conversion. Some were 1861 Springfield sights. Some weren't rifled but had ladder sights like the 1842 . It seems that they kinda put them together just to get the contracts complete.

The book says many rear sight had the spanner screw soldered to the sight then the threaded shaft filed off, the whole sight was then soldered to the barrel.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my H&P sight, but using JB Weld since it is essentially a "cold solder". I'm assuming I'll have file the dovetail block down.

Or just holding on to that sight and using the Lodgewood "non dovetail solder on" Ladder sight they sell for the 1842 muskets and Mississippi conversions.

FWIW, because the rear sight sits somewhat close to the breech, I doubt JB Weld is going to hold for 20 shots, if that long.....

If it were mine, I would round the bottom of the sight base to match the barrel contour first by filing and then by placing Emery Cloth with the Grit Side up wrapped around the barrel and rub the sight base forward and back over the area of the barrel, until you have a fairly close match between the barrel and bottom of the Rear Sight Base. Tthen solder it with a low temp silver bearing solder. You also should have something that will keep a little downward pressure on the Rear Sight Base to keep it from moving/slipping when the solder flows.

Gus

 

[nkbj]

Any more info?

(watching with interest)

 

[nkbj]

A while back I started trying to find out if any ever got rifled, got sights, maybe just maybe didn't get the mod to percussion, what combinations.

The Pedersoli 1816 rifled with sights would be a hoot.
But then I'd have to decide on the rifling geometry and twist.
x2!

 

[Stantheman86]

I have the JB Weld "Hi Heat" that's made for fusing together exhaust manifolds, etc, I think it may hold . A guy on another forum used it for a set of shotgun sights. If it doesn't hold I'll have a guy solder it. I'm trying not to have anyone drill and tap into an already kinda thin barrel.

Also the 1816 H&P repro sight is made for original 1816's, the Pedersoli has a slightly thicker barrel and thus the barrel contour doesn't match up with the sight contour until it's a little farther forward.

Which isn't a deal breaker since the sight placement wasn't an exact science for these conversions. The book excerpt gives a range of measurements the sights have been applied , measured from the breech. It's like the guys doing the conversion just soldered them on "close enough" and called it good.

nkbj I had thought the same thing , what converted or partially converted muskets may have been out there and were used up by the war, or taken home by troops. Or left to quietly rust away in State arsenals until the 1900s and then sold off for scrap or made into fence posts.

It seems there were so many small machine shops and gunsmiths contracted to do conversions, many were sent parts made by arsenals or other shops . You might have had what amounts to 3 guys in a barn converting muskets on machine tools. Some of the shops doing conversions only did like 70 muskets. We'll never know what combinations of features existed.

Muskets left in Flint but rifled? Muskets with Smoothbores, and flint locks with sights added? Probably not but who knows.

The book excerpt pretty much says there were no hard and fast rules, the State Govts. just wanted flintlocks in the 1850s turned into percussion. There were massive stores of flint muskets , in some cases pre-Revolutionary era, and the usable ones were converted.

The Pedersoli 1816 conversion seems like it is an awesome candidate to play around with. I think I'd have more fun with a Smoothbore with sights than the Chiappa rifled 1842.

It's a fascinating read , just Google "1816 Springfield percussion conversions " and you can find and download the file.

 

[nkbj]

I've JB'd a piece of plastic onto a rear band to trim down to a temporary sight to run the experiment on feasibility of a rear sight in that location. Haven't had a chance to try it out and do the trimming. It may be that a rear sight on the band and keeping the smooth bore will work well enough for me.

A brass rear soldered onto the band would look OK I think.

 

[Stantheman86]

This is about where the sight would sit and how it would look on the musket.

The dovetail on the bottom needs to go and I have to cut the shaft off the spanner screw.

 

[Stantheman86]

This style sight was also applied to rifled and smoothbore 1816's , basically making them similar to 1842 Springfields.

My theory that is supported by the book excerpt is that not all the shops that did conversions had the rifling machines and/or the particular batch of muskets had barrels too thin to rifle . So if they were given a shipment of sights and had the ability to convert the muskets to percussion, they converted them, slapped the sight on and added the $2 to their bill to to the State Govt. The musket was now "serviceable and ready for issue" , the rifling seemed more optional than anything .

 

[Artificer]

This style sight was also applied to rifled and smoothbore 1816's , basically making them similar to 1842 Springfields.

My theory that is supported by the book excerpt is that not all the shops that did conversions had the rifling machines and/or the particular batch of muskets had barrels too thin to rifle . So if they were given a shipment of sights and had the ability to convert the muskets to percussion, they converted them, slapped the sight on and added the $2 to their bill to to the State Govt. The musket was now "serviceable and ready for issue" , the rifling seemed more optional than anything .

I don't have original barrels to actually measure, but the 1816 through the 1828 Springfields had barrels too thin to rifle, as I recall. I know the M 1840 barrels were thick enough and I think the M 1832 as well, though don't consider that carved in stone.

If the Pedersoli barrel is on the thick side, that works in your favor, if you wish to have the barrel rifled by someone like Bobby Hoyt.

Gus

 

[gemmer]

Quite a few H&P 1816 conversions were rifled, as well as Remington Maynard conversions.

 

[gemmer]

FWIW, because the rear sight sits somewhat close to the breech, I doubt JB Weld is going to hold for 20 shots, if that long.....

If it were mine, I would round the bottom of the sight base to match the barrel contour first by filing and then by placing Emery Cloth with the Grit Side up wrapped around the barrel and rub the sight base forward and back over the area of the barrel, until you have a fairly close match between the barrel and bottom of the Rear Sight Base. Tthen solder it with a low temp silver bearing solder. You also should have something that will keep a little downward pressure on the Rear Sight Base to keep it from moving/slipping when the solder flows.

Gus

LOC TITE 380 Black Max will do the job. You can get it from Brownells.

 

[gemmer]

I have the JB Weld "Hi Heat" that's made for fusing together exhaust manifolds, etc, I think it may hold . A guy on another forum used it for a set of shotgun sights. If it doesn't hold I'll have a guy solder it. I'm trying not to have anyone drill and tap into an already kinda thin barrel.

Also the 1816 H&P repro sight is made for original 1816's, the Pedersoli has a slightly thicker barrel and thus the barrel contour doesn't match up with the sight contour until it's a little farther forward.

Which isn't a deal breaker since the sight placement wasn't an exact science for these conversions. The book excerpt gives a range of measurements the sights have been applied , measured from the breech. It's like the guys doing the conversion just soldered them on "close enough" and called it good.

nkbj I had thought the same thing , what converted or partially converted muskets may have been out there and were used up by the war, or taken home by troops. Or left to quietly rust away in State arsenals until the 1900s and then sold off for scrap or made into fence posts.

It seems there were so many small machine shops and gunsmiths contracted to do conversions, many were sent parts made by arsenals or other shops . You might have had what amounts to 3 guys in a barn converting muskets on machine tools. Some of the shops doing conversions only did like 70 muskets. We'll never know what combinations of features existed.

Muskets left in Flint but rifled? Muskets with Smoothbores, and flint locks with sights added? Probably not but who knows.

The book excerpt pretty much says there were no hard and fast rules, the State Govts. just wanted flintlocks in the 1850s turned into percussion. There were massive stores of flint muskets , in some cases pre-Revolutionary era, and the usable ones were converted.

The Pedersoli 1816 conversion seems like it is an awesome candidate to play around with. I think I'd have more fun with a Smoothbore with sights than the Chiappa rifled 1842.

It's a fascinating read , just Google "1816 Springfield percussion conversions " and you can find and download the file.

I built a flint 'hybrid" 1816 with all original parts and a RIFLED barrel made for me by Dan Whitacre. It has a simple dovetailed rear sight and Richmond carbine type front sight on the barrel rather than on the front barrel band. Fun gun to shoot.

 

[Stantheman86]

If the rear sight on a smoothbore wasn't historically correct I wouldn't bother with it, but this will be a summer project that I'll take my time with.

I think Pedersoli would do well to make some of these "hybrids" like a rifled and sighted 1816 Flinter and percussion. People love rifled bores and big bullets.

The existing Pedersoli 1816 repros seem kind of like a "catch all" as they aren't dimensionally similar to real 1816s but they represent a generic interpretation of every US musket from the 1810s to the 1840s.

 

[Artificer]

LOC TITE 380 Black Max will do the job. You can get it from Brownells.

I've had many years (since 1974) of experience using Hysol Epoxy 1C (White color) and to a lesser degree 11C (Black Color) gluing metal to barrels on unmentionable rifles where after thousands of rounds, the properly prepared surfaces did not lose their adhesion and did not come loose. However, it was never in an application where there wasn't some kind of mechanical advantage that aided in holding the two pieces together in some little fashion, at least.

I have never tried Black Max and to be frank, until I have personally seen it will work enough times, I cannot endorse it.

However, if you have seen it work on numerous occasions, may I ask a few question?

I strongly suspect, but don't know for absolute certainty that some things would be very necessary for it to work. First, the curvature of the bottom of the Rear Sight Base would have to be very close to the curvature of the barrel where it is to be mounted?

Second, we found for any kind of epoxy to assuredly adhere, the surfaces to be glued must be "roughed up" a bit. What we did was use a carbide bur to just roughen the surfaces, but not near the edges, where it might show after the epoxy cured?

Third, the two pieces of metal must be absolutely clean and we did that by scrubbing it with a wire brush dipped in Acetone and wiping it with an Acetone soaked paper towel or clean cloth. At that point, the surfaces must not be touched with bare fingers or the epoxy won't hold AND one must "glue" the pieces together as quickly as possible and some kind of clamp used to hold the two metal pieces together. I would imagine this procedure is necessary?

Any information you can provide would be most helpful.

BTW, here is the link to the product:
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...king-liquids/black-max-adhesive-prod6139.aspx

Gus

 

[gemmer]

Needing a peep sight for tired eyes, I used it to put a Williams receiver sight with a curved bottom on an original Sharps carbine barrel, just ahead of the receiver. I didn't want to put on a tang sight since drilling the tang would hurt the value of the gun. I fired 30 rounds through it and it's still there.

 

[Artificer]

Thank you,
Gus

 

[Stantheman86]

My info is purely non Scientific but if some old guy told me he used JB Weld to put a front sight on a very hard kicking "unmentionable " revolver in 1974 and after 40+ years of hard field use and 10,000+ rounds it hasn't moved , I call this "Redneck Field Science"

 

[nkbj]

Was the source where the rear sight was obtained in there somewhere?
It looks like a great addition to a 1816.

 

[Stantheman86]

Lodgewood has them , they're made by Rich Cross (?) in the USA. Very high quality.

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm going to see if a nearby shop can solder it on