Results in on flexible bore light

[pamtnman]

A month ago I was on a quest to find a way to both see deeply into the bore of a .54 barrel, and access it to fix any problems without removing the barrel and breech plug from the stock. The issue has been blown patches and increasingly bad accuracy, after the rifle first debuted with excellent accuracy six years ago.

So after some research and much-appreciated guidance here at Muzzleloadingforum.com, I bought a endoscope camera. Trying to find a happy medium between function and cost led me to the "Shekar" camera that has been previously marketed under several different names, but which remains essentially the same. I reasoned that at $75, it should function well enough to be a good investment for all our firearms and home maintenance projects. And on the whole, the camera has functioned pretty well.

Here are some before, during, and after photos from the project.

When the endoscope was first inserted into the barrel, and pushed down to the bottom where the breech plug screws in, several problems immediately jumped out. First, there was some rust at the bottom. Maybe it was minor rust, more of a discoloration, but it appeared to be creating little metal tags or sharp edges that were catching on the patches and tearing them.

The flash hole is at 9:00 and the black marks are where the drill bit first piloted its way and hit the breech plug. Deep scratches in the lands are visible, as are rough spots in the grooves. The breech plug is clearly rough from use.

Closer up view shows sharp pieces sticking up. Light reflects off the polished tops where the powder has fired and where cleaning tips have brushed or rubbed. Some rust is seen on the right at 3:00.

All kinds of stuff going on in this bore! Some light rust in the grooves. What the shiny bits are is unknown, but it's fair to guess these are tiny burrs sticking up. This rifle has been fired at least a hundred times, and always cleaned well.

 

[pamtnman]

These show the bore and breech after the first passes and rotating with the metal finishing pad. The purple color is some of the abrasive powder from the abrasive pad resting in the grooves. Already some of the high points have been removed and deep scratches on some of the lands are visible. That breech plug is looking better already!

 

[pamtnman]

After another hour and a half of careful passes and rotations at the bottom with the metal finishing pad, golly, but the bore, chamber, breech plug, etc look really shiny and tidy! Those rough spots we saw in the beginning are gone.

 

[pamtnman]

Clearly visible is some bit chatter from the original boring out process. You have to copy these 3MBP photos and then view them at about 20% size in order to get the details. I left these chatter marks at the muzzle, because most of the passes with the abrasive pad were started below the muzzle protector on the metal range rod. To get these last marks out, the abrasive pad would have to be run through without much support, and I am more concerned about damaging the muzzle doing that than fixing something that has a negligible effect on accuracy anyhow. Those chatter marks get worn away over time from the loading process, anyhow. This is just to show what all barrels have when they come from the maker, unless the maker also lapped the bore before the barrel was put in the stock. The white patches are actual corroded spots in the barrel steel, and I tested them with the sharp point of a small steel blade, to see how prominent they are. They are probably from me not doing as good a job cleaning as I thought I had done.

 

[pamtnman]

I would post photos of the blown patches and the tools, materials used in this project etc, but the forum has a size limit that each picture exceeds (they are each about 1.2 MB). If I can figure out how to bypass that limit, then i will get them up. Next up is testing the project by shooting the gun. Seeing if the patches are still torn and burnt, and seeing if accuracy returns. Also, the patches were torn despite resting over a variety of buffer materials on the powder. And the patches are lubricated with bear grease (real bear grease that I made from rendering bear fat).

 

[pamtnman]

Well, the results are depressing. The first shot was a 75 yard bullseye. After that, as wild and as erratic as the wind, and the patches have big holes in the middle of them.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I would post photos of the blown patches and the tools, materials used in this project etc, but the forum has a size limit that each picture exceeds (they are each about 1.2 MB). If I can figure out how to bypass that limit, then i will get them up. Next up is testing the project by shooting the gun. Seeing if the patches are still torn and burnt, and seeing if accuracy returns. Also, the patches were torn despite resting over a variety of buffer materials on the powder. And the patches are lubricated with bear grease (real bear grease that I made from rendering bear fat).

You should be able to reduce the size of your photos in your photo app. Best for these forums is a photo of 640 x 480 pixels. Look for a resize heading in the image pull down. Save the reduced photo with a new name.

 

[SDSmlf]

Well, the results are depressing. The first shot was a 75 yard bullseye. After that, as wild and as erratic as the wind, and the patches have big holes in the middle of them.

Curious about your patch material and lube. You could try shooting with a hard felt wad on the powder to protect the patch, at least as an experiment to see what happens. Would try either 9/16” or 5/8” diameter by 1/8” thick.

 

[hanshi]

Pamtnman, where did you find the Shekar scope/camera? My bore scope got left behind in our last move and I'd like another.

 

[S.Kenton]

You can try and over powder card as described, or just fold up an unused patch between the compressed patch and powder. That will act the same as what an over powder card would. I’d also be curious as to what your patch /powder combo is. If it’s erratic grouping.. then try working up a load with the tightest patch/ball combo you can. I personally like olive oil as a patch lube.. but you can use others. One other suggestion, I’d change one thing at a time and note the results... wether it’s reducing or increasing your powder charge.. do it in small increments. Good luck and post results! You’ll get it... it may take some time
And experimenting.. but that’s half the fun!

 

[Maven]

I would post photos of the blown patches and the tools, materials used in this project etc, but the forum has a size limit that each picture exceeds (they are each about 1.2 MB). If I can figure out how to bypass that limit, then i will get them up. Next up is testing the project by shooting the gun. Seeing if the patches are still torn and burnt, and seeing if accuracy returns. Also, the patches were torn despite resting over a variety of buffer materials on the powder. And the patches are lubricated with bear grease (real bear grease that I made from rendering bear fat).

I think I'd give that bore a good honing with either 0000 steel, or better, copper, wool or even well oiled green Scotch Brite and then try a new patch-lube-wad combination.

 

[jdw276]

Pamtnman, where did you find the Shekar scope/camera? My bore scope got left behind in our last move and I'd like another.

Amazon will have an incredible selection. Endoscope.....got mine through there.

 

[bang]

How thick are your patches?
If you are using .010 you might drop the ball size down a bit to where you can use .020.
May also try an aggressive lapping or even jewellers polish.
I had same issue with a 45 and 50 cal.. Did the lap plus cut the grooves deeper untill smooth. Right at 300 strokes per groove. Increased the depth .004. Made a lot of difference.

 

[pamtnman]

Thanks for the good comments and advice, guys. Somehow I neglected to say clearly that these photos represent the before, during and after of a barrel polishing effort using an ACE Hardware Metal Finishing Pad on the end of a brass range rod with a .45 cal jag. I will edit these posts to make it clear what the photos capture. Squares of pad were scissored off and laid over the jag, which was then forced down bore. I spun the pad round and round to de-burr the rusty or machined area between the barrel and breech plug. The pad was worked up and down the barrel maybe 30 times, 40 times. I tried different sized pieces, and some came off in the bottom of the barrel and had to be fished out. The bigger pieces that came off were pulled using a bullet puller.
Hanshi, this "Shekar" camera was purchased through Amazon, though there are better and also more expensive endoscope cameras at Home Depot and other venues. I paid $75 but it has already come down in price. For my purposes it represented a good trade-off between price, functionality, and expected durability.
For some of the black powder cartridge rifles in my care felt wads are punched out using steel punches. The felt I get from an Indian family, can't recall the business name right now, but a lot of shooters use them. Comes in scraps and extras, and varying widths from 1/16" to 1/2", so the cost is super low. For those of you who have suggested I use a felt wad over the powder under the patched ball, this is what I am going to use, thank you. I will order a 9/16" steel punch and make a racket in the basement generating yet another variation.
Lubricant I use past couple of years is straight bear grease. I have been rendering down bear grease from bear fat for several years and each time I get better at it and the product gets better. It is the best patch lubricant I have ever tried, though my back has become extra hairy...

 

[pamtnman]

How thick are your patches?
If you are using .010 you might drop the ball size down a bit to where you can use .020.
May also try an aggressive lapping or even jewellers polish.
I had same issue with a 45 and 50 cal.. Did the lap plus cut the grooves deeper untill smooth. Right at 300 strokes per groove. Increased the depth .004. Made a lot of difference.

Patches are pillow ticking, 0.018". The 0.015" patches weren't working, so the next size up made sense. Joanne's Fabrics is near me and the pillow ticking sells by the yard, and a yard lasts me and my boy about a year or two between us. Three hundred strokes sounds like a lot! If you look at the lands in the posted photos here, they clearly were slightly worn by the abrasive pad, and that was only 30-40 passes. Three hundred passes would alter this barrel bore enormously.

 

[pamtnman]

I think I'd give that bore a good honing with either 0000 steel, or better, copper, wool or even well oiled green Scotch Brite and then try a new patch-lube-wad combination.

Thanks Maven, that is what I did, using an ACE Hardware metal finishing pad. Man, the information that got set aside while waiting for the photos...sorry

 

[pamtnman]

Thanks to Grenadier and Zonie for guiding me in to making better fitting photos for this site.
Below are some of the tools and materials used to lap the barrel. Purple pad is the Ace Hardware metal finishing pad.

Below is the muzzle after all the polishing. The round radius rifling is visible, and so are its newly smoothed edges.

No matter how many times and ways I tried to get this photo oriented correctly, it did its own thing. This is the abrasive pad I used to lap the barrel. It worked very well. I got this particular product from a guy on YouTube, a fellow Pennsylvanian, who used it to smooth out his barrel so he could finally load it. He was right, this stuff works.

The phrase "Blown" patches seems to irk some people, and provoke others. How about "Blown Up Patches"? Does that work for you? It works for me because it accurately describes these patches. These are the "before" patches. And mind you, this rifle shot great for five years. Only now in its sixth year is it misbehaving. I thought these patches were wrecks...wait til I post the pictures of today's patches. They each have a hole through their middle...obviously some sort of stout over-powder backing wad is going to be necessary.

 

[pamtnman]

Here is the "Shekar" endoscope camera I used. It takes a mini SD card. I wrote a review of it on Amazon. Here are the patches AFTER lapping the barrel. Whatever the lapping did, it did not improve the condition of the patches after being fired. Nope. These are not "blown" patches, they are "blown up and destroyed" patches. Look at the hole in the middle of each one. You could drive a Yugo through there. Harrumph. The suggestion to put a thick felt wad over the powder and under the patched round ball is a good one. Something has to be done. The accuracy was awful.

 

[SDSmlf]

Patches are pillow ticking, 0.018". The 0.015" patches weren't working, so the next size up made sense.

You stated that the gun used to shoot well. Interesting. The $64k question is what changed?

Did you change patch source? In the Hoyt radius bottom rifling barrels I have I use a denim patch, .022” thick, that measures .0155” compressed. Thinner compressed patch material just doesn’t work. Tried some denim that measured .020” thick, but .010” compressed. Didn’t look for patches to check condition, but with the way the round balls were flying all over the place I really didn’t need to see the patches.

Your comment about ordering a punch. You can buy a punch set from Harbor Freight for less than $10 and experiment with different wad sizes. https://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-hollow-punch-set-3838.html

 

[pamtnman]

You stated that the gun used to shoot well. Interesting. The $64k question is what changed?

Did you change patch source? In the Hoyt radius bottom rifling barrels I have I use a denim patch, .022” thick, that measures .0155” compressed. Thinner compressed patch material just doesn’t work. Tried some denim that measured .020” thick, but .010” compressed. Didn’t look for patches to check condition, but with the way the round balls were flying all over the place I really didn’t need to see the patches.

Your comment about ordering a punch. You can buy a punch set from Harbor Freight for less than $10 and experiment with different wad sizes. https://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-hollow-punch-set-3838.html

Thank you for the suggestions.
This IS the $64,000 question! And the answer is I can only guess that continued shooting eventually wore away some of the burrs or high spots and the gun is settling in. Since the gun was made in 2013 I have used the same mold, the same poured .530" round balls, the same powder charge, and the same patches. All of a sudden the gun goes from excellent accuracy to erratic fliers and blown up torn up patches....I really have no idea what is happening. So were you able to get your own radius bottom rifled barrel to work for you? Another person here messaged me that he cannot get his radiused bottom rifled barrel to shoot. Makes me wonder if anyone ever actually tried this kind of rifling out or did it just become a fad and no one bothered to test it.
The ONE variable I have not tried and which others say works for them is placing a very sturdy over-powder wad or card in before ramming home the patched round ball. Guys have tried all kinds of patches without good results, and they write that only after they put a thick felt wad or a heavy cardboard wad over the powder did their gun begin to get its accuracy back. This was not an issue with normal flat rifling, and one cannot help but wonder really loudly if the radiused rifling is worth all this aggravation.
I am partial to arch punches, and the Osborne company makes them so well. Each of our black powder rifles has its own Osborne arch punch: https://www.csosborne.com/NO149.HTM