Revolver: wad under or over?

[CatalinaDave]

Been wonder'n, scratch'n, figur'n, why put the wad under the ball, why not put it on top?

I shoot alot of bp, which makes me wond'r, is it possible to shoot too much, or is that somethin' wives tell us to keep us under their control? But, thats a whole nother' thread, I'll start it if I ever finish this one.

Last summer I decided I wanted to be purist again, you know, makin' your own bp, own wads, lube etc. So I go to Wally's Frontier Trading Mart, the fabric section... figure to buy real felt, all natural, not polute the environment, like the days before flammable polyester.

So I trade for a full yard of 1/4" felt. Go home, mix up my usual brew of 3 parts vegetable oil, 1 part cookin' paraffin & 2 parts Jack Daniels. Soak my felt & figure now I'm good for another 10,000-20,000 shots without buyin' store bought wads again.

Head to the gun range with my Hawken 50 & a Pietta 1860 open top 44 copy.

All is great, i'm shootin' away just like I had good sense. Now, I'm loadin' the 44 as always, 28gr. FFFG, wad, ball maybe a little veggie grease over. Great, smoke, fire, smell of sulphur mixed with burning Jack Daniels! Perfect day . . . until . . .

I kept noticin' this stupid little fireball drippin' to the ground about 10' in front of my gun. It was really dumb lookin' well . . . I figure, no problem, just cut back on the Jack Daniels a little next time. Then, . . .

My last shot, ummm . . ., you've people talk about "hot loads" right? Well, this wasn't exactly what they were refirin' to.

Seems like that last wad didn't quite drop to the ground. It just kinda' stuck to the ball, burnin' all the way to the target . . .

Now this would have been fine if we were shootin' steel plates, but no, we were shootin' paper targets, stapled to cardboard on wood frames.

It might have been better if the target just burst into flames, but no, here in humid Florida, it just kinda' started smoulderin' real slow. . . ., pretty soon I heard people quit shootin', they were watchin' my target. Pretty soon someone said, "well, he got the 10 ring. All of it.", then someone else said, "now he's got the 9 ring", then someone else said, "there goes the 8." . . . Until the frame finally started charrin' black.

So here's my question, why load the wad undet the ball, except to move the ball closer to the end / front of the cylinder? My experience shows the cylinder gap is more important than how deep the ball is, as long as its firm on the powder.

Seating the wad on the powder only burns up the wad, but it burns up the lube too.

If you use enough powder, the ball will be close enough, but putting the wad with lube over the ball provides the same measure of safety against chain fires, cleans & lubes the bore before the ball passes thru it.

I'm ready, throw your hawks at me & tell me what yer thinkn'.

Which makes start wondern' "is it possible to have too many bp guns . . . . .??

Oh right . . . Thats a subject for another thread. . .

Then theres the question, do you think it would be better to smooth out my lube brew with Jack Daniels as always, or do you think I should try somethin' like Jim Beam or straight shine?

Keep chewin' powder
and spittin' lead

 

[mjulihn]

Not quite clear on the Jack Daniels -- are you drinkin' it or using it in your lube?? :rotf:

By the way, I place the wad between the powder and ball. Don't want the wad interfering with the ballistics of my RB by flying downrange ahead of it...

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the Forum.

I think you might need to cut back on the amount of Jack Daniels your using.

You might consider using less of it in your bore lube too. :haha:

As for putting the felt wad over the top of the ball with it just sitting there in the chamber mouth, you might have noticed what happens to the grease some folks put over the top of their ball. When the pistol fires, a lot of it gets blown out of the neighboring chambers.

I think either the felt will just get blown out or it will end up sticking out of the front of the cylinder and hang up on the barrel the next time the gun is cocked.

My version of the reason folks put the wad over the powder is it stays in place when the other chambers are fired.

It also lubricates the bore as it's passing thru.

It also guarantees that no fire or sparks will ever get to the powder in the other chambers thru the chamber mouth when the gun is fired.

Now, back to the leg pullin'. Did I ever tell you about the time............ :grin:

 

[CatalinaDave]

You mean it's good to drink too? I've always used it to mix lube. Was told it cleans out the pipe real good. :thumbsup:

Take yer best shot at me, then when ya' miss, throw yer hawks.

Keep chewin' powder & spittin lead!

 

[Wes/Tex]

I'm a Henry McKenna man, but........

Think the problem is that when they said "felt" back then, they were actually meaning something stiff like old hat brims. Soft felt like we buy in stores may be TOO soft. Just a thought, now think'll get some more "medicine"!! :wink:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

yeah you need hard felt. I make ny 'buttons' out of 1/8th" durofelt.
I shoot mostly Lee mold conicals dipped in lube then dryed so no need to place grease atop. the wad is dry. seems to have tightened groups a bit.

 

[TFoley]

Sir - you talk about being a 'purist'.

Well, I've just re-read the instructions in the case of my old Colt revolver, and there is no mention of ANY kind of a wad - in front, behind, to the side, stuck in your ear, up your nose, or whatever. :surrender:

I guess that Mr Colt had it wrong all those years ago, but then, he didn't have the benefit of over a hundred and fifty years of black powder shooting experience. :hmm:

tac, non-wad user

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I just recalled - if you're useing greased wads you should fire them soon after loading the lube likely will contaminate the powder.
the dry lube wads evidently don't but they are pricey - I don't use them.
if loading RB in my revolvers I smear a bit of stiff grease mix atop the balls. I make my own but boot grease (sno-seal or such) does well. a little dab will do ya.

 

[crockett]

Actually on one of Sam Colt's patent applications for combustible cartridges he had one design with a cork wad under a conical bullet and over the powder. BUT...that particular design was never produced to any degree as far as I know.
I think there is just a lot of unknowns on the wad issue. The Western gunmen wanted maximum charges and wads take up valuable space in the chamber so in that case the lawmen crammed in all the powder they could over a round ball. The conicals took up more space in the chamber than a ball so a ball was used when maximum charges were sought.
Still, I think it was Elmer Keith who said he was taught by old ex-Civil War vets on how to load a cap and ball revolver and he used wads he usually cut from an old cowboy hat. One note on that, these guys were in the Confederate Army and sometimes they had a little more flexibility than the Union troops. Although not much is said in the Union material about loading from flask and using a ball- the practice might had been more common in the South- I don't know- just thinking.
I've pretty much toyed around with all the options, I don't like making my own wads because quality control isn't there and the lube is an issue. I buy pre-lubed wonder wads, or the like, even though the cost is there.
We today may be excessively concerned on the safety/chain fire issue and figure that's why wads were used- if indeed they were. But, if a chain fire is more often the result of loose fitting caps, and the evidence points in that direction, then we may be using wads or sealing chamber ends for little gain in safety- I just don't know. We know folks like Robert E. Lee had the ends of the chamber filled with red wax but why is the question. To prevent a chain firings? or, to keep out moisture and insure the powder charge would fire?
As far as the wad over the charge- I guess let every guy scratch his fleas as he likes best but it doesn't seem valid to me and I'll list some reasons.
1. The wad in front puts the ball farther down the chamber which is generally thought to produce less accuracy.
2. The wad under the ball has often been thought to cushion the ball and seal the works better- producing better accuracy and higher velocity.
3. Could the wad in front of the ball, that is, exposed, pick up grit and sand, dirt, etc that could cause a problem.
Finally, every gun is a law unto itself, if wads work for a particular revolver then that speaks for itself however if anyone has experienced such- share your experience so we can all learn. I don't know about everyone else but I'm still on a learning curve.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Lotsa words for a simple issue.
For lube use pure parrifin or beeswax, no oils.
Put under ball.
Shoot.
Employ Jack Daniel's after shooting and at home.

 

[BullRunBear]

Welcome to the forum!

I make my own wads from Durafelt and home-brewed lube and they go under the ball. (The process to make them is simple and many, many, many times cheaper than buying them.) I seldom use maximum powder loads and the wad moves the ball closer to the chamber mouth. The lubed wad lets me keep shooting longer and clean up is a little quicker (compared to not using a wad at all.) It goes under the ball because I am leery of anything that might obstruct the bore. Never had one stick to the ball on its way down range and set fire to the target but that might make the all shots in one ragged hole easier. :rotf:

Glad someone finally found a good use for Jack Daniels: BP lube. For internal lubrication, George Dickel Tennessee sippin' whisky is a vastly superior product. Tastes good, too. :grin:

Jeff

 

[Blackpowdersmoke]

Yea...JD is nothing more than ethanol and caramel coloring!! :grin: :grin: :grin:
BPS

 

[MSW]

as a contrary old cuss, i have been known to drink Jack Daniels whilst making wads out of Durafelt, which i soak in a lube containing a very secret proprietary formula (which does not contain any whiskey, inasmuch as i do not see the need to share my liquor with an inanimate object).

i load powder, a dry cardboard wad, some corn meal, the lubed felt, and then the ball. to keep everything nice and greasy, i put a dab of lube over the top edge of the ball. this take a while, but it gets good results. besides, if i wanted to shoot fast, i'd get out a Model 1911 and try for the five second "El Presidente."

just one guy's free opinion, and no doubt worth every penny. i would recommend that you try a variety of methods, and then pick the one which produces the best result for you.

good luck, and make good smoke!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I use wads punched from waxed drink cartons (OJ and such) under a greased slug when loading to the max in my .44's to go out on a hunt so's to keep the grease off the powder. works good but groups are tighter (at least off a rest) with a felt atop the powder, small diff but noticeable.

 

[aeatwood]

That waxy drippy stick ball was the wad. It contained at least some polyester, and that was what was burning. AFAIK, the only place to EASILY locate felt for wads is old hats from the 2nd hand store, or durofelt. If you go to their web page, they have the right stuff explicitly marked - you want the 1/8" hard felt.

Elmer Keith said the old Civil War vets and lawmen that taught him to shoot C&B's all used greased felt wads over a full chamber (just enough room to set the ball in the mouth) of 2f for anything over .31. 3f was for .31 and smaller.

Note, you do NOT want the ball to touch the wad when you set it on the chamber mouth - that makes it hard to get the ball centered correctly. I make sure to seat the wad firmly on the powder before I go back around and add the balls.

The CW vets liked the paper cartridges loaded w/ conicals for foraging, because they gave better penetration on cattle and hogs, but they liked the loose powder, wad and ball better for combat. The RB was a much better manstopper.

 

[garry robinson]

i read this twice and i gotta ask.....you sure you and me aint long lost brothers or something? i thought i was the only one that had things like that happen . i go by Robinsons law that says...anything embarrassing that can happen will and the more folks watching ups the chances of it several fold . id have liked to seen it tho cause i wouldve asked you to do it again!