Rootnuke...can ya hear me???

[RussB]

Can ya hear me NOW?

I have read all the threads I could find here on "staining". So much so that my eye glasses have a hole in 'em.

Anyway, here's my delima.
I have a walnut stock that I'm working on...actually a pretty nice piece of walnut...but, I want to "stain" it the reddish color you presented in one of your posts...way back when in October. Now I do realize several things here, Walnut is darker, by nature, and responds better to darker stains. I think the grain may be a bit "tighter" making the stain less effective, etc, etc.

"Aqua Fortes test 1 with 1 coat of 1:1 True Oil and Terpintine" ....................Remember that???

Well, the question is; Could you recommend a process that would get me in the ball park of that particular piece of wood you showed....using walnut? Without bleaching my present stock first?

Walnut is fine. Walnut is beautiful, when properly finished, and I am very capable of doing that. But this itch is pretty bad too.

Any help would be appreciated.

Russ

 

[rootnuke]

I have only used to Aqua Fortis with Curly Maple. Different formula's of Aqua Fortis will produce different results on curly maple. Even if you use the same AF formula with multiple samples of maple from the same length of maple your results will vary based on the entire process of AF application, types of iron, heat and neutralization of the acids.

What I have found in my journey to understand the AF process is that their is NO "cookie cutter" AF formula. You will have to make notes on each formula and result. In my month of testing AF I have a stack of maple samples a foot square...some really suck!, while some look pretty darn good. Each .25"x2"x3" test maple piece represents a test. As of this writting the test pile is a foot high and I ain't happy yet, but I am getting there. The challenge regarding the good tests is to do it the same good way time after time. This takes time.

So how does this rich never-ending diatribe of giberish help you...

Regarding walnut question with AF I cannot help you a bit, I dont's have any expertise with walnut and AF.

I will tell you this...test, sample, test some more, then double check your tests. Your gonna be staining the stock which is centric and collectively you have spent the greatest amount of time on. It is important to get it right, period.

Test, test, walk away from it, sleep on it, go back and test again.

Once I am happy I will post what worked for me. But like I said I ain't happy yet. But I am having fun not being happy.

:redthumb:

 

[rabjr]

I tried a test with AF on a piece of walnut and it turns it black. If you want that dark antique wood look it might be for you, otherwise ya might not want to use AF on walnut.

 

[RussB]

RootNuke, and SwampRat, Thanks to both for taking time to reply. I was afraid AF would "blacken" the dense qualities of walnut, at least the pitch of the grain, to the point it be downright ugly.

I recently heard of another formula for stain that is supposingly original, but lacking in the reageants that is found in AF.
That is snips of old barbed wire mixed with cider vinegar.
I have a small coffee can of steel nails (not mag. coated)that was left out in the rain, I dumped the water off but saved the nails. Last Sunday I added Cider Vinegar to the can, and I checked it yesterday, and it looks good. I also applied a little to an old piece of walnut stock that I had had laying around, but I haven't been in the shop this morning to check it the results...too darn cold right now!

BTW, I read this formula again recently on the LongRifle, and Long John says, it is the "cats meow" for those looking for a "real red tone" in their coloring.

I have a fresh bottle of water based Walnut stain, and several "French Red" fillers on the shelf. I mixed alcohol in one of the French Reds, and didn't mark it, so I don't know which one it was now.
They should be stored upside down to prevent drying out, but these are old cans from Herter's, and have managed to get dried out quite a bit over the years.

Before I drag this project drag out much longer, I just might go with Walnut, be done with it, and start shootin. My patience just ain't what it used to be.

Thanks again, Russ

 

[BLAHMAN]

You may want to investigate an anniline dye. This is available at quality wood working supply stores (might even find some online). This stuff is powdered, as I recall, and you mix it with alchohol (not the drinking kind). Denatured alchohol I believe. These dyes come in a variety of colors and red should be among them. You could also use Rit dye, scarlet, and use denatured alchohol with it. Use a sample of test walnut.
When I make a gun from a walnut blank, I always add a red tint to it and I use an alchohol based stain I get from Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, Ohio. The stain I use is labeled "cherry" , but I'll check. I'll stop by the Log Cabin Shop in the next few days and I'll tell ya what they have.
I also take all the drips and dribbles of previous stains and dump them into an old peanut butter jar (eat the dang peanut butter first, if ya don't it makes your sandwiches tast funny) and come about with a managerie of color, I'll use that every now and then on maple. Hope that helps. :thumbsup:

 

[RussB]

Thanks BLAHMAN. Yes, do that, and let me know. I started a fire in the shop, but I can tell you right now, it ain't going to get warm enough to go out there and play today.
How much Alcohol do ya mix with the Rit dye? I have heard of others using Rit "mixes" simply because of the water base.
If I knew more about "colors", or the color specturm when mixing, I might give this a whirl.
BTW; Is that "Log Cabin Shop" the same one thats on line under that name?

Anyway, thanks again.

Russ

 

[RussB]

BLAHMAN....Is this the dye you are refering to???

Iem # 60AWSC @ $9.95 for 8oz.

If it is, let me know and I will get an order off today.

Thanks again.

Russ

 

[BLAHMAN]

RussB
Yup! that's the stuff I was refering to. It's not brilliant, eye popping red, but tones down walnut a bit.

 

[RussB]

Thanks BLAHMAN....Got a order off this morning, along with some Permayln finish.
I've never used Premalyn, and I've never used the Cherry stain....This could well end up a mess of record proportions.
If it does, I'll just strip it, and re-do it in the old "tried and true method" using water based Walnut stain, and Tru-Oil cut with Turpetine......Old "never fail" method.

I have been know to make a $1,000 mess out of $500 worth of parts, on occasion.
I have read a little bit about Premalyn...some good, some bad,....That has been my reason for holding off on trying it, but if there is any bad, I assure you it will rear it's ugly head when I start with it.

Russ

 

[RussB]

Blahman...Got the stain Friday, along with another can of Permalyn sealer. I "spotted" the stock in two places with the stain. One spot was 50/50 with water, the other was straight stain. Checked things out this morning and I think the 50/50 is the way to go.
The directions said to use "stain reducer" or "de-natured alochol"....I didn't have either so I thought I would try plain water. It seems to work just fine.

The "spot" I used the straight stain on is red! And I do mean RED ! I got just a little on the work bench, and I bet that stuff stays for years!

Thanks for the tip! Now I've got to get me a piece of maple to try this own, I bet it would be the cats meow on tiger stripe. :redthumb:

Russ

 

[rootnuke]

...The directions said to use "stain reducer" or "de-natured alochol"....I didn't have either so I thought I would try plain water. It seems to work just fine...

:what:

:hmm: I don't know where to start. I'm stunned. :shocking: The directions said one thing and you did something completely, diametrically opposite? How is water supposed to "thin" something that requires de-natured alchohol or stain reducer?

 

[RussB]

...The directions said to use "stain reducer" or "de-natured alochol"....I didn't have either so I thought I would try plain water. It seems to work just fine...

:what:

:hmm: I don't know where to start. I'm stunned. :shocking: The directions said one thing and you did something completely, diametrically opposite? How is water supposed to "thin" something that requires de-natured alchohol or stain reducer?

Well, perhaps you could say "not to worry", nothing is broke YET....... :no:
Or, you could say "sand it off, that is bad!" :nono:
Maybe, you could even say "If that pleases you...go for it"! :redthumb:

Hell, I don't know what to say either. :crackup:

I do have some Turpentine, and I'm not in such a hurry that I can't wait until I get the "right" stuff, although that ain't like me a whole lot.

What now coach? My stock has two stain "spots" on it...one dark, one light, both "cherry" in color, but neither just right to make that walnut look completely like cherry, which is to be expected, in my mind. (The lighter spot is closer than the dark.)

Russ

 

Russ
There are 2 stains that i know of that will make 2 differnt wood look like 2 differnt wood.
Confused yet?... Let me explain.
To make ash look like oak use min wax cherry stain.
And to get soft maple to look like cherry you will have to have one very thick check book and I am not sure that will help.
A guy from Germany showed me 2 pannels he had glued up containing 3 boards per pannel. The first had cherry soft maple in the middle the cherry on the outside again. The other was soft maple cherry the soft maple on the out side.
Exact same type wood only glued in opposite sequence)
You could not tell what wood was what.
He spent his money developeing this stain instead of buying expensive veneer. He told me it took him 14 years to get the formula figured out.
IMHO if you want wood to look like cherry.....use cherry..... If you want it to look like walnut .. use walnut.
To get walnut to look like cherry is about impossiable. To start with the texture of the wood are to different.The grain is very different.
The texture of soft maple and cherry are almost simular. The grain is nearly identical except for color.

Now that you have a stain on the wood and a light and dark spot because of it.. The more stain you use, the same pronuncation of the two differnt spots will stay the same
I would recomend you resand the stock down and get as much as possiable of it off with some elbow grease and then restain it with the same stain mixture.
Woody

 

[RussB]

Russ..........snip.........................
Now that you have a stain on the wood and a light and dark spot because of it.. The more stain you use, the same pronuncation of the two differnt spots will stay the same
I would recomend you resand the stock down and get as much as possiable of it off with some elbow grease and then restain it with the same stain mixture.
Woody

Yep, Woody, Not a problem. I clean it up right nice this afternoon. I'm ready to go at it again tomorrow, after I get that stain "cut" just right.

I realize exactly what you are saying about the texture and grain, actually I realized that right from the get-go. I have plenty good walnut stain, and this ain't my first rodeo when it comes to missing the boat. It's just that I wanted to "try" something different.
RootNuke did a piece of wood a few months back in cherry red that really caught my eye. Beautiful piece of wood!
Well, I just had to give it a shot! Probably hope beyond hope that I might get even a little bit lucky using walnut, but the "lighter" stain was not all that bad. Better than French Red, or water based walnut.

I'm sure you've been there, done that, and got a T-shirt too, So I know that you, of all people, understand what I'm saying.
Heck, life would be dull as a Ducks Foot if everything was easy, and came with instructions that you had to follow.

I'll "get'r done" within a week or so, and try to get a picture up for you...and, it's going to be a "red' tone! I guarantee you that.

Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

Woodhick,

Stains can be frustrating. My living room has lightly stained Chestnut trim. A blessing and a curse, as there hasn't been a chestnut tree in the US big enough to provide lumber for 60 years. Any tips for making any currently available wood look like chestnut? I haven't been successful yet. It's pecan brown and slightly redish without being anything like pecan or mahagony.

I put a dollop of Red Mahogany Minwax in with their Provincial on pine and try not to look at the recent trim I've added. I have great respect for the smiths that restore old stock wounds and blend them in unnoticably. Hats off to art restorers. :thumbsup:

 

[rich pierce]

Try potassium permanganate. Goes on violet but turns oak or walnut a rich deep reddish brown. I don't like Minwax as it does not penetrate very deep.

 

Stumpkiller. If you look hard enough you can still find a few chestnut trees 6 to 8 inches in dia that can be still sawed on a woodmisser type ban sawmill. I know of 3 such trees still standing. I also have found that many old barns were made out of chestnut also. You may find someone who has such a falling down barn that may let you have some of the old boards.
I built a few gun cabinets from chestnut that I have gorren from old buildings. I prefer to use the 2X stock so i can resize it with an old blade on my table saw before i run them through my planer. In doing this you eliminate much of the worry hitting nails and ruining the knives in your planer.
To get ash or oak to simulate chestnut i would try different stains on these two types wood. Red oak and white ash. White oak , chestnut oak,rock oak,pinoak will not look even close to american chestnut.
You may want to try Black Oak also as it is usualy sawed with red oak at mostsaw mills. But in my opinion white ash and red oak are your best bet in readiably accessable wood.
And it may take you 20 stains to come up with the right color close enough.
You may end up with one gallon of a mixed combo of stain when you are all done.could be expensive. :results:

Woody

 

[RussB]

Well, I'm about to give up on the stupid idea of mine of trying to make walnut look like maple.
It does not have to be "maple" necessairly, just a nice "reddish tone"....
Well I've got a red tone. but I have the grain of the walnut distracting from the tone...and that is not what I wanted. I just rubbed it down with rottenstone, took a couple of pictures, so you tell me. Would you strip it back, and go for a nice walnut, or is it somewhat appropriate????

I put a shadow line in that coumb, I'm not so sure how that would look in a "dark" walnut, the way that grain is running.
So...what's your thinking? Stripping ain't no big deal to me, This "tone" thing this is a big deal, but I guess I'm going to have to just junk the idea.

(I wish I could learn to manage that flash on the camera better, it "washes" every thing, even on it's lowest settings).

Russ

 

I know I'm kinda jumping in mid-thread here... but I gotta say, I think it's gorgeous, and I'd leave it alone.

I even like the shadow-line on the cheekpiece. See, ya just had to go and do that, didn't ya? Now ya got me thinking I might want to put one on my GPR... thanks. :shake: ::

 

[RussB]

I know I'm kinda jumping in mid-thread here... but I gotta say, I think it's gorgeous, and I'd leave it alone.

I even like the shadow-line on the cheekpiece. See, ya just had to go and do that, didn't ya? Now ya got me thinking I might want to put one on my GPR... thanks. :shake: ::

Oh, Thank you Sir, thank ya, thank ya, thank ya. That's the only kind word I've gotten so far....rest of it bordered on hate mail!

Something to the effect that, "Only a nut would try that, stupid trick, and what on God's green earth were you thinking? A close friend even suggested I refrain from the Apple Pie Jug. :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

Russ