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Round Ball Behaviour

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Peter A Meyer

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Greetings from Down Under from a new member. I was casting some bowling balls for an original 1801 Brown Bess the other day, and as I watched one drop out of the blocks a question sprang to mind out of the blue.

In all the discussions of ballistics, bullet behaviour, smooth bores, rifling, etc, etc, that I have read, I have never seen any mention made of exactly what a round ball does when it exits a smooth bore barrel.

Does it stay still relative to the diameter originally in line with the bore, or does it roll (this would be spin from a rifle), pitch, yaw, wobble irregularly or whatever? Does the sprue stub position, surface wrinkles or air pockets cause any or none of these? Has anyone ever given this any serious thought, or done any high speed photography or other investigations?

Some facts or thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks,

Pete.
 
I believe it would track in different directions due to surface texture and blemishes...

A baseball thrown without any spin will fly erratic, so a smoothbore's projectile would follow the same laws of physics I would think...

I don't see why the spure (flat spot) wouldn't catch air unevenly and tumble, plus there is more mass on the spure half of the sphere due to the spure itself, this would make it front heavy...

Must think on this more, good question...
 
Hi Peter
From the northern version of Ausy land. We did a series of checks on our variuos rifles and smooth bores. We found that most ball appears to fly in a spiral pattern. Meaning it has circlur flight. Sort of like a pin wheel effect. This increases or decreases depending on the firearm. Rifles were a lot smaller spiral. We took a few sheets of news print, hung them up at 25 yard intervals. Shot at the target behind, off the sand bags...
We thought the balls were moving up and down at first. Then we placed news print at 10 yard intervals The balls seemed to roughly go top , left, right, and middle on each piece of print.... In roughly the same pattern just larger and smaller depending on the firearm again... That's all we can think of what was happening... It must also be said that we did make a mess out of the news print with some of the shots... We should have also placed a few sheets in between the 10 yard papers say at 5 yards also...we also are not sure if the news print affected the flight..But hey we only had so many hours in a day... :m2c:
Best regards Loyalist Dawg
 
Loyalist Dawg - surely more than one day though?

When you talk of a spiral movement, I take it to mean around bore axis at the moment of discharge (from your description of the experiments). Interesting. No wonder spiral rifling became a tad popular!

By the way LD, I started my black powder shooting back in the early '70s while living and studying in Edmonton. We'd quit shooting for the winter when we couldn't cap nipples anymore with our bare hands (at about 10 below). Bit hard to come to grips with (excuse pun) for someone from a somewhat warmer climate!

Pete.
 
Hello Mike
yea the spiral seemed to increase as it moved down range. A lot more in the smooth bore. Mind these tests were not under the direction of Balistics experts but they seemed to piont to what I have been saying... :hatsoff:
My best regards Loyalist Dawg "LONG LIVE the KING"!!!!
PS I too was in Edmonton, strange place... Frooze our butts off one day in January (1980) then played foot ball (US style) in "T" shirts, (while dodging snow banks) the next day, because it was so hot....
 
I read about an intensive test done with shotshells out of smoothbore shotguns that concluded that a smoothbore barrel contributed to the wad and the shot contained in it to rotate 1/4 turn at the arbitrary testing distance. The shot that was placed in the plastic wad was color coded and columned for accurate analysis. (They were testing the effectiveness of straight rifling in shotgun bores which helps to stop the centrifugal spin and promote better long range patterns, which it does by an approximately 5-10% increase in distance.) It's then not too far of a stretch to imagine a similiar centrifugal spin on a PRB ball exiting a smoothbore barrel.
What I don't recall is exactly which direction the spin was proven to take (clockwise or counterclockwise). I would be willing to guess that the centrifugal spin of the ball may be the opposite in the Southern Hemishere when compared to the spin in the Northern Hemisphere since that's what I've heard about the direction of the spinning vortex in toilet and drain water. Here, our's spins counter-clockwise. What direction is your's spinning Down Under mate? ::
 
Arcticap - clockwise Down Under because of the Coriolis effect. Drains and toilets however always drain directly downwards under gravity, but a smoothbore can be aimed in any direction, so would the Coriolis effect apply at all in this case? I personally doubt it would. If, for example, your shot column (or RB?) turned clockwise when fired to the east or north, would it turn clockwise or anti-clockwise when fired to the west or south? My instinct tells me that the Coriolis effect could only possibly apply to a smoothbore when it was fired directly vertically, either up or down.

You could compare the firearm to a garden hose - I don't think anyone suggests the Coriolis effect turns the water out of the nozzle one way or the other depending on which side of the equator you live.

More thought fodder though.

Pete.
 
Draining bathtubs/toilets
"People often ask whether the Coriolis effect determines the direction in which bathtubs or toilets drain, and whether water always drains in one direction in the Northern Hemisphere, and in the other direction in the Southern Hemisphere. The answer is almost always no...."

"The time and space scales are important in determining the importance of the Coriolis effect. Weather systems are large enough to feel the curvature of the earth and generally rotate less than once a day so a similar timescale to the earth's rotation so the Coriolis effect is dominant. An unguided missile, if fired far enough, will travel far enough and be in the air long enough to notice the effect but the dominant effect is the direction it was fired in. :hmm: Long range shells landed close to, but to the right of where they were aimed until this was noted (or left if they were fired in the southern hemisphere, though most weren't).:hmm:You don't worry about which hemisphere you're in when playing catch in the garden though this is exactly the same physics at a smaller scale. A bathtub is best approximated (in terms of scale) by a game of catch."

Ballistics
"In firing projectiles over a significant distance, the rotation of the Earth must be taken into account. During its flight, the projectile moves in a straight line (not counting gravitation and air resistance for now). The target, co-rotating with the Earth, is a moving target, so the gun must be aimed not directly at the target, but at a point where the projectile and the target will arrive simultaneously"

Coriolis effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect

Maybe a combination of gravity and the earth's rotation could affect the direction a PRB will spin as well as affect where it will impact? :huh:
 
MMMMMMM! More thought fodder. In the three years I lived in Canada, I never once thought to do a series of checks on water spin direction down the drain. It's certainly clockwise here - I can't get it to go anti-clockwise down any of my drains. Toilets don't count here (despite a certain "Simpsons" episode!) as we don't have drop-bottom toilets, using a displacement flush instead. Water shortages limited my tests to a couple per drain - conscience won't allow any more!

I can see how a long range unguided missile or shell would miss due to the movement of the earth's surface during time of flight. But surely not by much, and also, if in EITHER hemisphere you fired a long range gun northwards, the projectile would miss to the left, and if fired to the south, it would miss to the right? Due to the earth turning west to east in both hemispheres! Likewise, shooting to the west would cause it to overshoot, and undershoot to the east. Overall miss distance, all other factors being equal, would also depend on latitude, as the earth moves most at the equator and least at the poles.

The above arguments should also apply to a RB out of a smoothbore, but the time and space scale involved is so small, the effect would possibly be unmeasureable due to other much greater variables, but would certainly be calculable. As to the Coriolis effect causing RB spin out of the barrel, it's hard for me to see how it could. However it may have an effect on which direction Loyalist Dawg's spiral flight starts off, depending on which direction the shot is fired in.

Who knows? This is an aspect of my original query that I hadn't considered then, but it makes interesting musing and nicely fills some spare time caused by insomnia!

I may not agree with everyone's opinions, but it's beaut to have them. Thanks,

Pete.
 
Firstly, WELCOME to the Forum! Hope you find it as nice here as the rest of us do. Now on to your query.

I have to excuse myself, whilst I take a little break, my PC is getting all wonky again. I shall be back ASAP, as I do have some pertinent info and possible answers to the problem.

Regards,
WV_Hillbilly
 
All of the silliness about clockwise & anti-clockwise spiral for water going down a toilet bowl or a drain has to do with the shape of the container and the initial direction that the water was put into the system. I did read somewhere that the huge artillery that fired high angle projectiles that the Germans used in WWI to shell Paris actually "did" experience the "coriolis effect" to some degree. This was due to the extreme distance involved and the comparatively long amount of time that the projectile was in flight.

I'll see if I can explain this, if for nothing else, to see if I remember the effect. We need to remember that the Earth is rotating continuously. If we fire at a stationary target, the Earth moves beneath the projectile (which if the period of flight is lengthy), will cause the target to rotate out of the aimed flight path. BUT to our eyes and our minds, the effect would be that the bullet veered to the right or left (depending on firing direction, speed of projectile, time of flight, wind, air drag, lots of factors to consider. Suffice to say, that the effect would be more noticeable at the equator--since the rotational speed of the Earth is greater than at any other place.

Many people try to use this "coriolis effect" to explain why certain gun barrels were rifled with a right-hand OR left-hand twist--depending on which hemisphere that were mainly intended to be used in. Since the designer of the gun could never know which direction and the exact location of where the projectiles would be fired--this whole theory borders on the ludicrous.

If we look at a centrally (nose) mounted single engine, propeller-driven plane, we have to compensate for the engine torque factor that is wanting to twist the plane (roll). Therefore the pilot allows for this, especially at takeoff and landing. where the plane could just "flip over". This effect was even more drastic in the "rotary engine" powered Sopwith Camel of WWI fame. The "entire" engine rotated around the center line of the crankshaft, and was a force to be reckoned with for the pilots. That is why many Camel pilots died during training and other non combat missions. BUT properly used to advantage in a dogfight, the Camel could perform a roll/turn much faster and to the surprise of some of the German pilots. The pilot of the Camel was then on the tail of it's enemy very quickly!

So to get back to round ball flight characteristics. No, I am no rocket scientist, though I have worked with many of them. Some of what I have written is fact, and some is my opinion also, but consider how severe the forces would have to be to cause really serious effects to the flight path of a smoothbore fired roundball.

I likewise believe the imperfections in the cast round ball have to be considered in any theories on how the projectile behaves in flight. Swaged balls "almost have" to be a much better choice, IF they are available, as they have eliminated some of the variables that could affect flight. Since swaging requires more equipment and expense than most individuals can bear to burden, we must learn to live with "less than perfect" cast round balls.

The smoothbore ball would still obturate under the forces of the expanding gas generated upon firing. There is no rifling to "fill in", so this obturation (IF it is severe) might NOT be the best thing for a straight flight path. The patched round ball in a smoothbore gains nothing but a better gas seal by virtue of the obturation and the lubricated patch. The patch in this case makes loading easier and may also prevent some leading. The optimum projecile(?) would be a lubricant impregnated swaged round ball that is a near perfect fit without a patch. I have some further comments on projectile design, which I will post under a new topic.

If you're as confused as I am about this, join the club. There has to be a much better way of doing things, but the right person hasn't gotten hold of it (the idea) yet! Maybe someday...

ALWAYS use a BIG enough gun & shoot safely,
WV_Hillbilly
 
I faintly recall that, when the Brits were working up the SMLE and its loads, they tried to take this effect into account...did some kind of study as to the effect on the 'average' place they'd be fighting...I believe this was in some long-ago gun magazine article...I have no knowledge of whether it was true or not...Hank
 
The article did mention fictional, centrifugal and Coriolis forces which hypothetically contribute to the overall Coriolis Effect. While there isn't a full blown manifested
Coriolis Effect occurring when firing the smoothbore, it's possible that some of these same contributory forces are playing some role in determining the exit spin or trajectory of the PRB. I agree that it would be nice if an authority could provide better answers.

I believe this is an accurate fact. Trajectory is affected whenever a bow or a gun is fired at a 45 degree angle up or down. When fired down at a 45 degree angle or more, the arrow or bullet will impact several inches higher at very close range. I'm not certain if the effect on trajectory is the opposite (down) when fired upward or not, but I have seen several articles in major hunting/shooting magazines about this effect. There is a force at work that causes it. Maybe someday I can locate the article, but I think it has to do with the effects of gravity. If anyone else recalls this effect, please help refresh my memory.
 
There is a force at work that causes it. Maybe someday I can locate the article, but I think it has to do with the effects of gravity. If anyone else recalls this effect, please help refresh my memory.

Yep, it's good old gravity at work...
 
This is a bit off topic, but interesting I think.

I read somewhere, probably on this board, that rolling a roundball around on a rasp file so it gets little dimples all over it like a golf ball, will make it fly straighter from a smoothbore. I've never tried it.
 
This is a bit off topic, but interesting I think.

I read somewhere, probably on this board, that rolling a roundball around on a rasp file so it gets little dimples all over it like a golf ball, will make it fly straighter from a smoothbore. I've never tried it.

It will also increase it's diameter slightly as the "dimples" will displace lead...
 
I am sure its flight would be erratic. Gravatational pull is not the same everywhere. In fact gravity pools in certain areas simular to plasma, affecting the flight of spinning balls as well as those fired from smoothbores. Have you ever had a shot go nowhere near where it was aimed? Simple it passed thru or near one of those pools of gravity affecting it flight. This phenomenon is noted mostly in large flat areas such as a shooting range.
 
I am sure its flight would be erratic. Gravatational pull is not the same everywhere. In fact gravity pools in certain areas simular to plasma, affecting the flight of spinning balls as well as those fired from smoothbores. Have you ever had a shot go nowhere near where it was aimed? Simple it passed thru or near one of those pools of gravity affecting it flight. This phenomenon is noted mostly in large flat areas such as a shooting range.

I know I've had it happen....at my range, and in the Bermuda Triangle !!

:crackup:
 
Here are some thought about ball spin...
1 Your ball should be sufficently undersized (.10 to .20) so as not to deform your ball. This is not a rifle. You want the ball to move smoothly out of the barrel without getting it deformed. The patch should peel away.
2 Swagged balls do better because they are rounder (no spruce) and because the dimples create air cavities around the ball similar to the way golf balls do.
3 The way a ball spins out of a smooth barrel is a function of how perfectly round the barrel is (no high, low or constricted regions) and the drag created as the ball scrapes against the fouling (creating disproportional drag on the ball) as it moves forward down the barrel.
4 How high or low on the target the ball strikes is a function of how clean (friction free or tightness) the barrel is. A clean barrel shoots low. A dirty barrel shoots high (more pressure applied to the ball per unit of time in the barrel).
What do you guys think? :hmm:
 
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