After getting my buck a couple days ago, I'm starting to wonder what I can do to improve my roundball performance. Maybe I can't do anything. I put 90 grains of fffg in my .50 white mountain carbine, which should be a solid load. I've read that, due to the short 20" barrel, I may be really only burning 70 grains or so. The flinter doesn't really kick when I shoot it with the 90 grains. Should I bump it up a bit? Even though the shot was 100 yards, it seems like a roundball should be able to pass through both sides of the ribcage. In this case, i didn't get an exit hole. The shot was perfectly broadside. I knew i should've remembered to recover the ball, but i forgot. I'm considering trying a conical or something because the roundball caused so little bleeding. For a liver shot, it seems the deer should've bled more than the 60 yards that it did. I love shooting the roundball but want to do everything i can to optimize it. Any ideas?
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round ball penetration??
- Thread starter ruddyduck
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A new gun with a longer barrel better suited to roundballs is out of the question?
Actually theres a little more than just through the rib cage, you hit the liver, I had a .54 call ball driven by 110 gr of 2F stop on the far side after hitting the liver at 60 yards once.
I think that was a long shot for a .50 and you just might be asking to much of that little gun. You could go out now with snow on the ground and load up a 90 gr load shoot it a few inches from the snow and see if there is unburnt powder on the snow. :v
Actually theres a little more than just through the rib cage, you hit the liver, I had a .54 call ball driven by 110 gr of 2F stop on the far side after hitting the liver at 60 yards once.
I think that was a long shot for a .50 and you just might be asking to much of that little gun. You could go out now with snow on the ground and load up a 90 gr load shoot it a few inches from the snow and see if there is unburnt powder on the snow. :v
jtmattison
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Like Swamp Rat said I think you're asking too much of that rifle.
That very short barrel won't give you a good burn on such a large powder charge. It will probably only totally burn about 60 or 70 grains. There's a formula somewhere that will tell you how much that barrel should burn efficiently.
Frankly I'm surprised you get 100 yard accuracy out of it. Great shooting on your part. :thumbsup:
100 yards is also pushing the limit of the .50 cal ball.
I would try to work up an accurate load with 70-80 grains of powder and keep shots under 75 yards.
HD
That very short barrel won't give you a good burn on such a large powder charge. It will probably only totally burn about 60 or 70 grains. There's a formula somewhere that will tell you how much that barrel should burn efficiently.
Frankly I'm surprised you get 100 yard accuracy out of it. Great shooting on your part. :thumbsup:
100 yards is also pushing the limit of the .50 cal ball.
I would try to work up an accurate load with 70-80 grains of powder and keep shots under 75 yards.
HD
Hello from Germany!
I use a Traditions deerhunter with a 24'' barrel in .50. First my charge was 90 grs WANO PP behind a .490 PRB. This load was to strong, because too many flash light at the muzzle and a terrible bang. So I reduced to 75 grs WANO PP. The terrible bang is góne, also the flash light. The effect on deer is the same as with 90 grs WANO. I really think it is even better. A slower ball gives his energy bettter to the deer as a fast ball. At 50 meters the balls always pass through the deers.
Regards
Kirrmeister
I use a Traditions deerhunter with a 24'' barrel in .50. First my charge was 90 grs WANO PP behind a .490 PRB. This load was to strong, because too many flash light at the muzzle and a terrible bang. So I reduced to 75 grs WANO PP. The terrible bang is góne, also the flash light. The effect on deer is the same as with 90 grs WANO. I really think it is even better. A slower ball gives his energy bettter to the deer as a fast ball. At 50 meters the balls always pass through the deers.
Regards
Kirrmeister
I know i pushed it. I had read numerous times that .50 roundball is basically good to 75 yards. I'm very interested in getting a period correct long barreled flinter in .54 for my area (catskill mountains near cooperstown which was settled around 1740). That's probably what I will do. any other ideas?
longcruise
70 Cal.
Can't expect too much from a liver hit. :shocked2: If you get some lungs and liver it's a faster kill, but a liver hit is a slow bleed.
Sometimes a hard close range hit at high velocity doesn't pass through because of flattening of the ball which reduces penetration. Sometimes a longer hit doesn't pass through because the velocity reduced. And, often a tweener will be a pass through.
Everybody has their own experience to relate to but for me, the blood trail is rarely there regardless of pass through or not. If you get both lungs with a pass through there will always be a spray of lung particles and blood on the off side of the hit, but often there is no more blood after that since hitting both lungs collapses them and leaves plenty of space for the blood to settle in the chest cavity.
Sometimes a hard close range hit at high velocity doesn't pass through because of flattening of the ball which reduces penetration. Sometimes a longer hit doesn't pass through because the velocity reduced. And, often a tweener will be a pass through.
Everybody has their own experience to relate to but for me, the blood trail is rarely there regardless of pass through or not. If you get both lungs with a pass through there will always be a spray of lung particles and blood on the off side of the hit, but often there is no more blood after that since hitting both lungs collapses them and leaves plenty of space for the blood to settle in the chest cavity.
jtmattison
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WhiteMountainCarbine said:
I found the powder burn formula but of course I forgot to save it. It is on the forum if you do a search for "formula".
Your short barrel should only be able to burn about 45 grains of 2f powder efficiently. Of course we use larger charges but you should get the idea now of efficient loads.
HD
jtmattison
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Here she be:
HD
paulvallandigham said:
HD
paulvallandigham
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Using the Davenport formula, you are only going to burn 51.6 grains of FFg powder, efficiently. If you use FFFg powder, you can maybe burn about 5-10% more, but a chronograph will tell the truth about that. We are still only talking about 3-5 grains more of powder if you can add more powder by going to the FFFg grade of Black Powder.
I don't know anyone who would recommend a 50 grain charge of powder behind a .50 caliber PRB for hunting deer, at any distance beyond 50 yards. The lowest velocity data I have for the .50 cal. PRB in the Hodgdon reloading manual begins at 60 GRAINS of FFg powder.
I would put at least 60 grains of powder behind that PRB in your short barrel, but realize I cannot expect to get any where near the reported velocity of 1390 fps. from that charge in a 20 inch barrel. You barely get that velocity with a 28 inch barrel, which most folks consider pretty short for a ML rifle barrel.
I don't know anyone who would recommend a 50 grain charge of powder behind a .50 caliber PRB for hunting deer, at any distance beyond 50 yards. The lowest velocity data I have for the .50 cal. PRB in the Hodgdon reloading manual begins at 60 GRAINS of FFg powder.
I would put at least 60 grains of powder behind that PRB in your short barrel, but realize I cannot expect to get any where near the reported velocity of 1390 fps. from that charge in a 20 inch barrel. You barely get that velocity with a 28 inch barrel, which most folks consider pretty short for a ML rifle barrel.
I was using fffg in the flinter, but have usually used ffg in the cap rifles i have. I will probably go to fffg in all of them now, especially since I got some free cans from a guy i know. I once read that TC discontinued white mountain carbines/penn hunter carbines because of the short barrel issue. But, i also remember reading that velocity differences between these rifles and rifles like the hawken were negligible.
playfarmers
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A liver shot is a slow killer. I once shot a big doe in the liver with a .30-30, and when it didn't even flinch hit it again 1" from the first shot. I fallowed a poor blood trail for 60 yards and shot it again in the head. We tend to blame the rifle or the bullet, but in fact it usually is poor shot placement, or too far a shot.
paulvallandigham
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The differences in velocity are not negligable. Certainly not at the muzzle. Down range, at 100 yards they may have little difference in actual veolocity of a PRB delivered to a target. But with such a short barrel, you can't get the same kind of velocity the longer barrels will deliver.
To that extend, whatever you were told or read is wrong. Use FFg in flintlocks. Use FFFg in percussion guns.
You seem to want to persist in making the wrong choice in what you choose to do, and ignore the experience and advice being given to you here. Why is that? Do you just have to make all your own mistakes before you learn anything? If so, then why bother asking questions here? I have spent 30 + years making a lot of mistakes, learning what works, and what doesn't. I asked for advice from experienced shooters, and listened to what they told me. I did find that some guys didn't really know what they are talking about. But, I listened to their advice, and then got other opinions when I didn't thing their advice sounded right. There are some people who will purposely steer you wrong, because they don't want you beating them in club shooting matches. Those guys become easier to identify the more you get to know them. But, most of here have no reason at all to give bum advice to you. I certainly don't.
My education got a thorough shaking when I acquired my chronograph, and found out that a lot of things I thought were helping my shooting, weren't! Some of them I had been doing for years. I don't do them any more. Its been hard. Its like saying goodbye to an old girlfriend.
There are so many more things about your gun that ONLY you can learn about it, and that no one else can tell you about, that whatever information we do tell you should be taken to heart. The worst source of information is from that young clerk in the sportings goods section at the local discount store. Next to him, the advice from some of the old timers who work in the sporting goods stores, and simply repeat what they think they heard, but have not been out to a range to shoot for years.
The whole reason this site has already developed a fine reputation for providing great information is because the members here take the sport seriously enough to answer questions honestly. Yes, there can be different ways of doing things. There can even be different opinions about Guns, powders, bullets, and balls. Lubes will keep us all talking for years to come! Lord knows what a difference of opinion about percussion caps exists among us here.
But, listen to what we tell you here, and you won't be throwing money away, or wasting your time,reinventing wheels.
To that extend, whatever you were told or read is wrong. Use FFg in flintlocks. Use FFFg in percussion guns.
You seem to want to persist in making the wrong choice in what you choose to do, and ignore the experience and advice being given to you here. Why is that? Do you just have to make all your own mistakes before you learn anything? If so, then why bother asking questions here? I have spent 30 + years making a lot of mistakes, learning what works, and what doesn't. I asked for advice from experienced shooters, and listened to what they told me. I did find that some guys didn't really know what they are talking about. But, I listened to their advice, and then got other opinions when I didn't thing their advice sounded right. There are some people who will purposely steer you wrong, because they don't want you beating them in club shooting matches. Those guys become easier to identify the more you get to know them. But, most of here have no reason at all to give bum advice to you. I certainly don't.
My education got a thorough shaking when I acquired my chronograph, and found out that a lot of things I thought were helping my shooting, weren't! Some of them I had been doing for years. I don't do them any more. Its been hard. Its like saying goodbye to an old girlfriend.
There are so many more things about your gun that ONLY you can learn about it, and that no one else can tell you about, that whatever information we do tell you should be taken to heart. The worst source of information is from that young clerk in the sportings goods section at the local discount store. Next to him, the advice from some of the old timers who work in the sporting goods stores, and simply repeat what they think they heard, but have not been out to a range to shoot for years.
The whole reason this site has already developed a fine reputation for providing great information is because the members here take the sport seriously enough to answer questions honestly. Yes, there can be different ways of doing things. There can even be different opinions about Guns, powders, bullets, and balls. Lubes will keep us all talking for years to come! Lord knows what a difference of opinion about percussion caps exists among us here.
But, listen to what we tell you here, and you won't be throwing money away, or wasting your time,reinventing wheels.
playfarmers said:
:bow:
You are to be commended for your honesty!!
:hatsoff:
I once sat comfortably in a treestand, mid morning, beautiful November day, good light, Doe steps into a logging road 90 yards away and stops broadside just looking around, relaxed, just enjoying a walk in th park.
I lean back against the tree, braced my left elbow down against my chest, almost as solid as a bench rest, put the .30-30's bead on her for a high shoulder shot, squeezed the trigger, and saw her sort of flinch at the noise but to my disbelief continued to stand there.
I slowly cycled another round into the chamber as quiet as a church mouse, set up again, same sight picture, squeezed the trigger and dropped her in her tracks...checked her all over but she only had the second shot in her...to this day I don't know what I did wrong but I completely missed that deer at only 90yds under the most ideal hunting conditions you could ask for. :shocked2:
Easy there....I haven't persisted in anything. I only said that I remembered reading, a long time ago, two opposing articles on long barrel vs. short barrel. Even the TC manuals recommend the same charges for the carbine barrels....not that I believe that is good advice, considering all the info on here.
I've shot blackpowder for 18 years and been reading info on this site for a few While I haven't experiemented as much as many of you, I do enough to ensure that each rifle ingnites consistently and holds tight groups. I shoot deer every year with them and have never lost one. I don't believe I should be belittled for my "mistakes" when, in actuality, I'm just asking questions.
Anyway, the processor told me the roundball passed through after all. I must have missed the exit hole.
I've shot blackpowder for 18 years and been reading info on this site for a few While I haven't experiemented as much as many of you, I do enough to ensure that each rifle ingnites consistently and holds tight groups. I shoot deer every year with them and have never lost one. I don't believe I should be belittled for my "mistakes" when, in actuality, I'm just asking questions.
Anyway, the processor told me the roundball passed through after all. I must have missed the exit hole.
I use a short barrel flintlock myself. One of the handiest guns I ever handled, even if it doesn't fit me well and it is not historically accurate to anything I know of. 70 grains of 3f Graf's put a 495 completely thru a large mature buck at 60 or so yards. The next day it rolled a 100 pound doe. I use 2f in my longer barreled guns mostly.
Staple a paper plate onto a board. Set it at 50 yards. Shoot it 10 times in a row off hand. If you hit it 9 out of 10, then you check out for that range. Go to 60. When you reach the range where your skill, vision, and the sights start to fail to hit the paper plate all the time, then you have reached your personal roundball hunting range. No bullet will do anything well if you can't place it where it belongs. 60 grains of 3f is plenty for 50 yard shots on deer. At 100 it is getting pretty thin.
Staple a paper plate onto a board. Set it at 50 yards. Shoot it 10 times in a row off hand. If you hit it 9 out of 10, then you check out for that range. Go to 60. When you reach the range where your skill, vision, and the sights start to fail to hit the paper plate all the time, then you have reached your personal roundball hunting range. No bullet will do anything well if you can't place it where it belongs. 60 grains of 3f is plenty for 50 yard shots on deer. At 100 it is getting pretty thin.
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WhiteMountainCarbine said:
Everything else has been well-coverred here. If you hit an animal high, and don't srike an artery (which will spray blood), bleeding will remain internal until it reaches the level of the hole.
Yes, everything you've said is correct...and I've lived 17+ years of muzzleloading by TC's load data charts and found them to be spot on.WhiteMountainCarbine said:
This following statement, however, is totally incorrect, both in it's content and in the attitude with which it was thrust upon you:
"...whatever you were told or read is wrong. Use FFg in flintlocks. Use FFFg in percussion guns..."
I don't think I've ever heard a more incorrect statement...just more incorrect armchair theory.
All I've used in caplocks and Flintlocks for years now is Goex[url] 3F...in[/url] .40/.45/.50/.54/.62 calibers, both rifles and smoothbores...and it's outstanding...fast, clean and accurate...deer, turkey, crows, doves, squirrels, and trap targets.
Keep up the good work...
:thumbsup:
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paulvallandigham
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You know , Roundball, your personal attacks are getting a little old. I don't mind if you disagree with something I say, but I don't need the personal attacks. Either stop, or take the freeze off your PM so I can find out where you live and we can settle this in terms you can understand. Quit hiding from me.
jtmattison
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Come on now gentlemen. Let's keep it civil and on topic. Please settle your disputes in private.
HD
HD
Walks with fire
54 Cal.
WMC,
I like short barrels as well; mostly because they are handy to carry and still shoot accurately enough for me. I have found that a .50 cal. roundball from the shorter barrels leave a little to be desired for whitetails beyond the 60 yard mark. I do think that 3f is the right powder to use in it to maximize what we have to work with.
I like short barrels as well; mostly because they are handy to carry and still shoot accurately enough for me. I have found that a .50 cal. roundball from the shorter barrels leave a little to be desired for whitetails beyond the 60 yard mark. I do think that 3f is the right powder to use in it to maximize what we have to work with.
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