Round Ball performance story and question

[borealedc]

Hey all,

I'll try to keep things somewhat concise but I do need to lay down some details.

Three years ago I set out for my first white-tail hunt with my Pedersoli Tryon. I had practiced with this rifle a fair bit over summer and really got familiar with its behavior and had the sights set well for 50 yard shots. I would be hunting from a stand for morning and evening, and still hunting the woods during the day. I had been loading the rifle with 100 FFg and a 495 Hornady ball with patch.

At least that was the plan. I busted deer in the morning heading into my spot. I sat anyway for a bit and only saw a doe. I knew I had blew the deer out of there so I slipped away. I entered again late afternoon for a typical evening sit and sure enough, right around 5:15pm a nice old mature buck came sauntering in. I waited until he stopped, which happened to be about 15 yards. I settle the sight just inside the shoulder and fired. The buck dropped immediately and I could see something was strange. He was kicking legs and trying to drag himself off, but expired very quickly. It looked as though it were a spine hit, but that seemed odd considering where I had aimed. But a dead deer is a dead deer and it hadn't moved more than a couple feet.

That said, during field dress and field autopsy, I was curious about the performance of my first round ball hunt. Broadside shot, slight decline from the stand and I jusr clipped the scapula. The ball flattened like a quarter piece, deflected and clipped the spine. There was very minimal penetration and I thanked my stars it all worked out.

I had been reading previously about hunters getting full pass through on deer and what not but I certainly did not experience stellar performance. Instead I had experienced over-expansion, and no penetration of even slight bones like a scapula.

The next year I tried a different ball, using a Buffalo 490 and 90 grains of FFg. I had a nearly identical hunt. This time I stayed clear of any shoulder, the ball broke two ribs on entry, passed both lungs, broke one rib on opposite side and the ball stayed there, inside the hide. That deer wandered about 40 yards and died quickly. The scary thing was I was worried about the previous years performance and I saw almost no blood trail. It was a tough recovery because of the October foliage and zero blood to follow.

I'd like to hunt a black bear this spring, going out for a first sit this weekend. Do you think a load like 100 grains FFg and 490 ball is enough gun for the old black bear? If not, how do 1:48 twist barrels shoot conicals like the TC Maxi ball?

Thanks for your time and thanks for reading.

 

[SDSmlf]

Hey all,

I'll try to keep things somewhat concise but I do need to lay down some details.

Three years ago I set out for my first white-tail hunt with my Pedersoli Tryon. I had practiced with this rifle a fair bit over summer and really got familiar with its behavior and had the sights set well for 50 yard shots. I would be hunting from a stand for morning and evening, and still hunting the woods during the day. I had been loading the rifle with 100 FFg and a 495 Hornady ball with patch.

At least that was the plan. I busted deer in the morning heading into my spot. I sat anyway for a bit and only saw a doe. I knew I had blew the deer out of there so I slipped away. I entered again late afternoon for a typical evening sit and sure enough, right around 5:15pm a nice old mature buck came sauntering in. I waited until he stopped, which happened to be about 15 yards. I settle the sight just inside the shoulder and fired. The buck dropped immediately and I could see something was strange. He was kicking legs and trying to drag himself off, but expired very quickly. It looked as though it were a spine hit, but that seemed odd considering where I had aimed. But a dead deer is a dead deer and it hadn't moved more than a couple feet.

That said, during field dress and field autopsy, I was curious about the performance of my first round ball hunt. Broadside shot, slight decline from the stand and I jusr clipped the scapula. The ball flattened like a quarter piece, deflected and clipped the spine. There was very minimal penetration and I thanked my stars it all worked out.

I had been reading previously about hunters getting full pass through on deer and what not but I certainly did not experience stellar performance. Instead I had experienced over-expansion, and no penetration of even slight bones like a scapula.

The next year I tried a different ball, using a Buffalo 490 and 90 grains of FFg. I had a nearly identical hunt. This time I stayed clear of any shoulder, the ball broke two ribs on entry, passed both lungs, broke one rib on opposite side and the ball stayed there, inside the hide. That deer wandered about 40 yards and died quickly. The scary thing was I was worried about the previous years performance and I saw almost no blood trail. It was a tough recovery because of the October foliage and zero blood to follow.

I'd like to hunt a black bear this spring, going out for a first sit this weekend. Do you think a load like 100 grains FFg and 490 ball is enough gun for the old black bear? If not, how do 1:48 twist barrels shoot conicals like the TC Maxi ball?

Thanks for your time and thanks for reading.

Something I’ve posted before.

Have taken many deer with 45 caliber muzzleloaders, both with round balls and conicals. First started hunting with an 06. Quickly learned that a shot from any angle or distance worked. With the 06.

Early on, hit a quartering towards me buck at a little over 100 yards and discovered limitations of a 45 caliber round ball. Perfectly ‘placed’ shot, bounced around shoulder/upper leg bones but never penetrated chest cavity. After a a long tracking session, aided by fresh snow, finished the deal. Lesson learned, shot placement can be critical depending on caliber. Same shot placement location with a 45 conical or 58 caliber roundball for example, little or no tracking. Had a 54 caliber TC ready to go before the following season and never looked back. And just as a side note, hunting regulations where I hunted at the time limited muzzleloaders to using roundballs only.

I have no problem using 45 caliber round balls for deer, but keep shots well under 75 yards, and make careful shot placement, much like when archery hunting. You need to wait for the right shot. It will not penetrate the chest cavity from any angle like larger balls or conicals will. As my high school football coach told me, ‘boy, you are just to light in the a$$ to play this game’.

 

[snakebit]

Deer are hard to figure out sometimes. You cut a loud fart, and they may fall over stone dead. Heart shot deer have been known to run a hundred yards. Sometimes geometry works against you, a rib or leg bone can change the angle of a projectile enough to stump the best of us. Sounds like you did everything you possibly could have to prepare. Weird things just happen. Glad it worked out in your favor. I have no experience hunting bear, I don't like the meat, so I don't pursue them. Someone will be along soon I'm sure to help.

 

[longcruise]

This will seem counterintuitive, especially if the majority of your experience has been with suppository guns. But, 100 grains under a 50 caliber ball at close range can give those kind of results. It's sort of analogous to a soft bullet at close range from a high velocity centerfire.

And believe it or not, that shot would have had a good outcome even with a 60 grain charge.

Finally, DRT is good, so.........

 

[Caterpillar Hunter]

80 or 90 grains behind a .490 round ball in the vitals will kill bear and deer at reasonable ranges. And I'd say recovering deer at 40 yards and even beyond is about what I expect and see every year.

 

[morehops52]

I adopted Maxi balls early on in my ML adventures. There are few deer that run after being hit with a 370 gr 50 cal or even the more devastating 430 gr 54. No matter what they all kill deer. While I admit you don't need a 54 cal to harvest a deer it still works very well and it's my go to when venison season comes around. Now I've really stirred up the soup pot

 

[morehops52]

BTW a 100 gr of powder in a 50 RB is a LOT of powder. I've backed my Maxi loads down to 80gr in 50 and 90gr in 54. It saves powder but more importantly it's accurate and saves on chiropractor visits.

 

[snakebit]

I adopted Maxi balls early on in my ML adventures. There are few deer that run after being hit with a 370 gr 50 cal or even the more devastating 430 gr 54. No matter what they all kill deer. While I admit you don't need a 54 cal to harvest a deer it still works very well and it's my go to when venison season comes around. Now I've really stirred up the soup pot

Venison soup. Hold the peas please. Turnips are ok though

 

[longcruise]

If not, how do 1:48 twist barrels shoot conicals like the TC Maxi ball?

1:48 will work fine. My first elk was a 50 cal 370 gr maxi and 70 grains of goex at 131 yards. I don't use them anymore but family members prefer them and do very well on deer.

 

[ETipp]

I've never had any ML with a 1:48 inch twist not shoot Maxi Balls very accurately.

 

[morehops52]

All of my ML rifles are 1:48. They all shoot Maxis very well to excellent or I wouldn't use them.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

IMPO 100 gr. Is to much powder for your 50.

I've shot deer with 2 different 54 rifles using 85 gr. 2 or 3f. The balls I have never recovered.
Shoulder shot passed thru both scapulas a near perfect round hole he fell in his tracks. Broadside shot passed thru lungs ran 100+ yards.The others head and neck shots DOA.

Tree stand shots are rarely what the angle you see (imagined).
Take a cardboard box set
it out 50 yards. Get in your stand and shoot at it. Put no target dots or marks on it.
The go over and see where the ball traveled.

Had group of guys invite me to go hunting with them. That all been out for hunting for the season, I'm not a bow hunter.
One of the guys that shot at a deer, huge buck. They look for it for a couple hours.
Weeks later
(That morning the guys put me in a tree stand and then said, If you see anything weird let us know.)
Previous bow hunt
Later that day one of the other guys climbs up in the same tree stand.
He's sitting there he's looking all around like we do. He looks over in front of him & there's an arrow sticking out of the side of the tree.
20 feet off the ground!

Many shots aren't really what you imagine.

 

[LME]

Hey all,

I'll try to keep things somewhat concise but I do need to lay down some details.

Three years ago I set out for my first white-tail hunt with my Pedersoli Tryon. I had practiced with this rifle a fair bit over summer and really got familiar with its behavior and had the sights set well for 50 yard shots. I would be hunting from a stand for morning and evening, and still hunting the woods during the day. I had been loading the rifle with 100 FFg and a 495 Hornady ball with patch.

At least that was the plan. I busted deer in the morning heading into my spot. I sat anyway for a bit and only saw a doe. I knew I had blew the deer out of there so I slipped away. I entered again late afternoon for a typical evening sit and sure enough, right around 5:15pm a nice old mature buck came sauntering in. I waited until he stopped, which happened to be about 15 yards. I settle the sight just inside the shoulder and fired. The buck dropped immediately and I could see something was strange. He was kicking legs and trying to drag himself off, but expired very quickly. It looked as though it were a spine hit, but that seemed odd considering where I had aimed. But a dead deer is a dead deer and it hadn't moved more than a couple feet.

That said, during field dress and field autopsy, I was curious about the performance of my first round ball hunt. Broadside shot, slight decline from the stand and I jusr clipped the scapula. The ball flattened like a quarter piece, deflected and clipped the spine. There was very minimal penetration and I thanked my stars it all worked out.

I had been reading previously about hunters getting full pass through on deer and what not but I certainly did not experience stellar performance. Instead I had experienced over-expansion, and no penetration of even slight bones like a scapula.

The next year I tried a different ball, using a Buffalo 490 and 90 grains of FFg. I had a nearly identical hunt. This time I stayed clear of any shoulder, the ball broke two ribs on entry, passed both lungs, broke one rib on opposite side and the ball stayed there, inside the hide. That deer wandered about 40 yards and died quickly. The scary thing was I was worried about the previous years performance and I saw almost no blood trail. It was a tough recovery because of the October foliage and zero blood to follow.

I'd like to hunt a black bear this spring, going out for a first sit this weekend. Do you think a load like 100 grains FFg and 490 ball is enough gun for the old black bear? If not, how do 1:48 twist barrels shoot conicals like the TC Maxi ball?

Thanks for your time and thanks for reading.

I use a .54 cal. for deer. A .45 will take deer but it isn't the best choice for large game if using a ball.
I use to work in a sports shop when the owner needed extra help. I can't count the times I have heard the story," I know I hit that deer but he ran and I never found it" ? most were using .45 or .50 balls ? I thought for some time that it didn't take much to take a deer . I had no problem with a 226 grain ballin my .54 but even it needs good placement to be effected. I can't recall any of them say they were using conicals? All small calibers should use conicals if deer hunting. Conical will work in .45 cal. rifles.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

Conical
I had a customer in PA who swore by the Hornady PA Conicals.
Sold a lot Remington,Hornady,Lyman,TC to guys in the north west over the years

 

[LME]

Conical
I had a customer in PA who swore by the Hornady PA Conicals.
Sold a lot Remington,Hornady,Lyman,TC to guys in the north west over the years

I can understand why they swore by them. I experimented with them in my .54 Hawkin . I had a problem with accuracy but it was due to the 1:66 rifling . I could put a ball in the target with ease but not with a conical although it was safe to hunt with at close range. I just prefered accuracy thinking I may get a shot at a 100 yards. The conical never shot a 6 inch group at a hundred. I couldn't stand the results.

 

[borealedc]

This will seem counterintuitive, especially if the majority of your experience has been with suppository guns. But, 100 grains under a 50 caliber ball at close range can give those kind of results. It's sort of analogous to a soft bullet at close range from a high velocity centerfire.

And believe it or not, that shot would have had a good outcome even with a 60 grain charge.

Finally, DRT is good, so.........

Yeah I had a similar thought that year. The following year I loaded 90 instead of 100, but reading some of the feedback I might be better off with 80 or 85 grains yet. Thanks.

 

[borealedc]

IMPO 100 gr. Is to much powder for your 50.

I've shot deer with 2 different 54 rifles using 85 gr. 2 or 3f. The balls I have never recovered.
Shoulder shot passed thru both scapulas a near perfect round hole he fell in his tracks. Broadside shot passed thru lungs ran 100+ yards.The others head and neck shots DOA.

Tree stand shots are rarely what the angle you see (imagined).
Take a cardboard box set
it out 50 yards. Get in your stand and shoot at it. Put no target dots or marks on it.
The go over and see where the ball traveled.

Had group of guys invite me to go hunting with them. That all been out for hunting for the season, I'm not a bow hunter.
One of the guys that shot at a deer, huge buck. They look for it for a couple hours.
Weeks later
(That morning the guys put me in a tree stand and then said, If you see anything weird let us know.)
Previous bow hunt
Later that day one of the other guys climbs up in the same tree stand.
He's sitting there he's looking all around like we do. He looks over in front of him & there's an arrow sticking out of the side of the tree.
20 feet off the ground!

Many shots aren't really what you imagine.

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that 100 grains may have been too much. I should spend some time behind the sights with a charge around 80 or 85 grains.

 

[Rebel bull]

my only flintlock buck was with a 45 cal patched round ball over 70 grains of 3f goex. the shot was 125 lasered yds. the ball clipped the near side shoulder blade (half the ball diameter) both lungs and penatrated the off side blade and was found under the hide. buck was found about 30 yards away.
so my take is a 45 cal patched round ball will do the job every day of the week if you do yours

 

[Christophero]

They say 'deer aren't hard to kill', but sometimes they can be difficult to find after the shot. After running out of TC 355 grain conicals for 25 years I started using the PRB a buddy had cast in my 50 Cals. First kill was a big doe at 29 steps through both scapula and out the off side. She fell but couldn't get up. The coup de gras was quickly administered. Ok, these work.
A few deer have been kilt all the way out to 100 yards with the same load of 65 gr fffg. Not always a good blood trail, though and no more dropping on the spot either.
Yet, extremely few dropped on the spot from perfect placement from the 355 Gr conicals. Hit and runs have always been the norm.
Last mzldr deer was a doe at 96 steps. I shot high. She dropped to a spine hit froma .54 pbr. Walked up and finished her with a pbr through the heart. That first chunk of lead did not bust all the way through the spine. Quite deformed without loosing weight. A .54 slug probably would have fully penatrated. Still dead deer.
They all have their pros and cons.
Ultimately your choice what to use based on what you want most.

 

[borealedc]

I think what I've gathered is a prb should work just fine for deer if I do my job, and it has. For bear and cow elk I'll be looking to load a conical if it all shoots well out of my rifle. Thanks.