I have been shooting round ball 50 cal. and recently started casting REAL bullets but have not had time to shoot them. I did notice that the recommended powder charge for the REAL bullets is quite a bit lower. Is this Lee being overly conservative or is there that much of a difference? I plan on following manufactorers recommendations, but am just curious.
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
round ball vs. REAL bullets
- Thread starter cplmorse
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Lee R-E-A-L Bullet Molds
A semi-wadcutter style bullet with large bands.
Rifling . Engraved . At . Loading.
The driving bands are large enough to adequately engage the rifling when pushed into the muzzle, and thin enough to withstand maximum charges without stripping or gas cutting. Unique Cleaning Action. You can shoot all day without cleaning your rifle between shots! When inserted into the muzzle, tiny scraping edges are swagged forward on each driving band. These perfect fitting scrapers remove the fouling from the previous shot.
Easier, Faster to Load.
It's easy to load straight and true, easier and faster than a round ball with patch. Easily stabilized with very light charges, the R. E. A. L. bullet also retains accuracy with maximum loads. Each band is generously tapered to the rear with an angle close to that of a lathe center, so as to center the bullet against the rifle bands. When pushed in, the bullet automatically centers in the bore.
More Accurate.
The bevel base of the R. E. A. L. bullet contributes to greater accuracy. When the bullet exits the bore, the gas escapes equally around the perimeter of the base. The uniform bevel is resistant to nicks that would permit gas to escape prematurely and cause a jet effect on one side of the bullet.
Sorry, I can't find a picture to go with it.
A semi-wadcutter style bullet with large bands.
Rifling . Engraved . At . Loading.
The driving bands are large enough to adequately engage the rifling when pushed into the muzzle, and thin enough to withstand maximum charges without stripping or gas cutting. Unique Cleaning Action. You can shoot all day without cleaning your rifle between shots! When inserted into the muzzle, tiny scraping edges are swagged forward on each driving band. These perfect fitting scrapers remove the fouling from the previous shot.
Easier, Faster to Load.
It's easy to load straight and true, easier and faster than a round ball with patch. Easily stabilized with very light charges, the R. E. A. L. bullet also retains accuracy with maximum loads. Each band is generously tapered to the rear with an angle close to that of a lathe center, so as to center the bullet against the rifle bands. When pushed in, the bullet automatically centers in the bore.
More Accurate.
The bevel base of the R. E. A. L. bullet contributes to greater accuracy. When the bullet exits the bore, the gas escapes equally around the perimeter of the base. The uniform bevel is resistant to nicks that would permit gas to escape prematurely and cause a jet effect on one side of the bullet.
Sorry, I can't find a picture to go with it.
Guest
It sounds like the "REAL" bullet is trying to get as far away from the traditional muzzleloading concept as possible. If a person is going to use an in-line rifle with a "real" bullet and a "disc" of powder, why don't they just use a modern cartridge rifle? What is the point of all this technology?
If a person is THAT worried about gas pressure, not swabbing between shots, or having the bullet clean the barrel for you, why not get out of the muzzleloading game? Many of us enjoy the "process" of fine tuning the powder charge, patch and ball to the most accurate load. too much technology takes the process out of your hands.
I've also heard it said that many hunters use the new in-line rifles just to be able to hunt during the Muzzleloading Season.
I'm not trying to start an anti in-line debate, just trying to point out that the reason that many of us are attracted to "traditional" muzzleloading are all the reasons that the modern in-lines are trying to eliminate.
If a person is THAT worried about gas pressure, not swabbing between shots, or having the bullet clean the barrel for you, why not get out of the muzzleloading game? Many of us enjoy the "process" of fine tuning the powder charge, patch and ball to the most accurate load. too much technology takes the process out of your hands.
I've also heard it said that many hunters use the new in-line rifles just to be able to hunt during the Muzzleloading Season.
I'm not trying to start an anti in-line debate, just trying to point out that the reason that many of us are attracted to "traditional" muzzleloading are all the reasons that the modern in-lines are trying to eliminate.
quote:I've also heard it said that many hunters use the new in-line rifles just to be able to hunt during the Muzzleloading Season.I have heard that too, and so has the manufactors of the modern muzzleloaders.
It all comes down to this.... $$$$$
I feel that using modern bullets only cheapens the whole "traditional" flavor of the muzzleloading era, just like using sabots and rifle bullets, what's the point?
Didn't the modern cartridge "ALMOST" killed the muzzleloader once, back in the 1860's?
The closest thing to a bullet I use in my .58 ZOUAVE is the old style minie-ball, and that is because that was a traditional bullet for that weapon.
My brothers use T/C maxie balls and sabot's in their T/C "HAWKEN'S", they call me a pureist for using my Brown Bess and a patched round ball...
I've been called worse.
It all comes down to this.... $$$$$
I feel that using modern bullets only cheapens the whole "traditional" flavor of the muzzleloading era, just like using sabots and rifle bullets, what's the point?
Didn't the modern cartridge "ALMOST" killed the muzzleloader once, back in the 1860's?
The closest thing to a bullet I use in my .58 ZOUAVE is the old style minie-ball, and that is because that was a traditional bullet for that weapon.
My brothers use T/C maxie balls and sabot's in their T/C "HAWKEN'S", they call me a pureist for using my Brown Bess and a patched round ball...
I've been called worse.
There were conicals used to some extent in the 18th century but if these were available I doubt that they would get much use as they were mostly solid chunks of lead with no belts or grooves and were often patched when loaded, the choice of what to shoot in a replical ML is up to the individual, I have just never seen any logic in useing a bullet of modern style/design, credit for much of the popularity of the new bullets goes to TC as they kind of started things off with their Maxi when the introduced the "Hawken" I wonder how things would be now in the world of ML if they had built a real Hawken type gun with primitive sights and made for RB use rather than creating an all around compromise twixt past and present.
The fact that I shoot REAL bullets is because I wanted to shoot something I could cast myself, I didn`t like the idea of shooting something someone else made. Kind of an independent streak I geuss. I built my rifle, knife, and cast my own bullets. My hawk was forged by a buddy of mine. Don`t jump to conclusions guys, I`m as anti-modern as anybody. My hawken 50 cal has a 1 in 48 twist which, as you know, can shoot round ball or conical. With round ball I can`t seem to get a tight pattern so I thought I would try this type conical.
quote:Originally posted by cplmorse:
With round ball I can`t seem to get a tight pattern so I thought I would try this type conical. What sort of pattern do you get and at what range?
With round ball I can`t seem to get a tight pattern so I thought I would try this type conical. What sort of pattern do you get and at what range?
cplmorse
I think it is great you make alot of your stuff (we never seem to have enough stuff) The only problem I see with the REAL bullets is with the kind of rifle you seem to be using to shoot competition you have to use round ball. At least that is the way most events here in Iowa are. I see you are from Wisconsin do you ever get to the Prairie du Chein Rendezvous? If you do maybe we will see you their this year.
I think it is great you make alot of your stuff (we never seem to have enough stuff) The only problem I see with the REAL bullets is with the kind of rifle you seem to be using to shoot competition you have to use round ball. At least that is the way most events here in Iowa are. I see you are from Wisconsin do you ever get to the Prairie du Chein Rendezvous? If you do maybe we will see you their this year.
quote:Originally posted by cplmorse:
The fact that I shoot REAL bullets is because I wanted to shoot something I could cast myself. Have you ever cast a round ball?
I couldn't tell from your post if you ever tried this...
You can still make it yourself...
The bottom line is, shoot whatever makes you happy....
The fact that I shoot REAL bullets is because I wanted to shoot something I could cast myself. Have you ever cast a round ball?
I couldn't tell from your post if you ever tried this...
You can still make it yourself...
The bottom line is, shoot whatever makes you happy....
I have the Lee R.E.A.L mold which cast a 320 grain bullet and a .490 ball. I will be hunting hog as well as deer with my Hawken. I bought the Lee mold because I thought I would need something a little heavier for hogs than the round ball. I've found the bullet to be very accurate with Pyro, Triple 7, and BP. At first I thought the bullet was a little hard to load, but once I learned to give it a good sharp rap with the short starter it would load very easily. If these old eyes of mine were as good as they were when I was 30, I think the rifle/bullet would shoot clover leafs at 50 yards all day long.
The bullets in the photo were from the first batch I cast with the mold.
The bullets in the photo were from the first batch I cast with the mold.
I use a 50/50 blend of Lee Alox Bullet Lube and bee's wax on my minie balls for my .58 caliber Zouave. (melting equal amounts in a small pan, then allow to cool)
Keep in mind, I am in north-east Ohio and the summers do not get that hot, but we do get in the high 80's and low 90's during august and september.
I have some cast minie-balls that were lubed from two years ago and are still in good shape, the lube has remained in place and is not brittle or gummy.
I hope this will help.
Keep in mind, I am in north-east Ohio and the summers do not get that hot, but we do get in the high 80's and low 90's during august and september.
I have some cast minie-balls that were lubed from two years ago and are still in good shape, the lube has remained in place and is not brittle or gummy.
I hope this will help.
I've shot REAL bullets for over 5 years and happen to live close to LEE Manufacturing. I have both the 250 grain and the 320 grain REAL Bullet moulds.
The 250 grain is for 1 in 48 twist in 50 cal and the 320 grain is for 1 in 32 twist.
Lee's recommendations are very conservative. I can shoot a 2 inch group with REAL bullets at 50 yards and you can expect a 3 to 5 inch group at 100 yrds.
Start with 50 grains of powder, your choice, I've shot both ff and fff and increase your group(load) by 10 grain increments until you find the best load for your gun. Don't be confused with the powder charge, bullets, retain more energy and make the powder more efficient than with round ball, so you don't use as much. My best load was 70 grains of 'P'(fffg) and a home made wonder wad. Be careful not to dent the bottom of the the bullet. I get a little better group by putting a wonder wad over the powder and under the bullet. When you cast them the bottom band ought to be .510, the middle .512 and the top band ought to be .517. Many people use bore butter as a lube, but I've found that Lee Alox is the best.
(You will develop barrel leadin, so invest in a bristle bore brush)
For other topicers; Bullets were used since 1850's through the civil war. The best reason for a bullet is that it maintains considerable energy even out to 100 yds. Double or triple of that of a round ball. I guess its the type of hunting you do. There really aren't any original bullets available today that were used except for civil war enfields and whitworth rifles. True muzzleoading bullets were in excess of 400 grains. We trade weight for speed I guess. Best to cast roof sheet lead and add a little tin to help fill out the bands. I use dental x-ray foils added to sheet lead.
Lee does make a combination mould that casts one round ball and one real bullet at the same time. You could do both and see which is best.
The 250 grain is for 1 in 48 twist in 50 cal and the 320 grain is for 1 in 32 twist.
Lee's recommendations are very conservative. I can shoot a 2 inch group with REAL bullets at 50 yards and you can expect a 3 to 5 inch group at 100 yrds.
Start with 50 grains of powder, your choice, I've shot both ff and fff and increase your group(load) by 10 grain increments until you find the best load for your gun. Don't be confused with the powder charge, bullets, retain more energy and make the powder more efficient than with round ball, so you don't use as much. My best load was 70 grains of 'P'(fffg) and a home made wonder wad. Be careful not to dent the bottom of the the bullet. I get a little better group by putting a wonder wad over the powder and under the bullet. When you cast them the bottom band ought to be .510, the middle .512 and the top band ought to be .517. Many people use bore butter as a lube, but I've found that Lee Alox is the best.
(You will develop barrel leadin, so invest in a bristle bore brush)
For other topicers; Bullets were used since 1850's through the civil war. The best reason for a bullet is that it maintains considerable energy even out to 100 yds. Double or triple of that of a round ball. I guess its the type of hunting you do. There really aren't any original bullets available today that were used except for civil war enfields and whitworth rifles. True muzzleoading bullets were in excess of 400 grains. We trade weight for speed I guess. Best to cast roof sheet lead and add a little tin to help fill out the bands. I use dental x-ray foils added to sheet lead.
Lee does make a combination mould that casts one round ball and one real bullet at the same time. You could do both and see which is best.
