Not sure if this is the right forum or not but was wondering if an Enfield (repro like Armisport)rifled musket could also shoot a roundball accurately. Was hoping to get one and cast minies, but would also like to use it occassionally as a percussion rifle at local matches where roundball is used. Thanks
Roundball in musket?
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Sure. 
Any of the rifled muskets will shoot roundballs, often with greater accuracy than the Minie' bullets will give.
Use a .570 dia ball with .015 thick cotton patching loaded over 75-80 grains of powder and have fun.
Being one who isn't fond of heavy recoil, I much prefer shooting the roundballs.
There 278 grain weight is a lot easier on the shoulder than the 500+ grain Minie's.
Don't get me wrong though. The Minie's are about like shooting a 20 guage field load, maybe a little more gentle because of the slower kick delivered by black powder.
zonie
Any of the rifled muskets will shoot roundballs, often with greater accuracy than the Minie' bullets will give.
Use a .570 dia ball with .015 thick cotton patching loaded over 75-80 grains of powder and have fun.
Being one who isn't fond of heavy recoil, I much prefer shooting the roundballs.
There 278 grain weight is a lot easier on the shoulder than the 500+ grain Minie's.
Don't get me wrong though. The Minie's are about like shooting a 20 guage field load, maybe a little more gentle because of the slower kick delivered by black powder.
zonie
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They will handle minies. However, some roundball matches will insist that you have fixed sights, thus the ladder will be objectionable to some. I've never understood that mentality since very often the person insisting on traditional roundball rifles, will be toting a fantasy weapon like a T/C Hawken. I don't have a problem with T/C guns, but feel that roundball only discourages competition with authentically styled arms and the ammunition appropriate to them. T/C didn't choose to duplicate an historic arm. They simply applied an historic name to a modern muzzleloader.
The Armisport Enfield is a reasonable replica of an original muzzleloading arm, and is thus more traditional than a T/C.
All that said, a minie will shoot much more accurately than a round ball, at longer ranges with much greater retained energy. Shooting a roundball through a rifled/musket is sort of like
shooting an AR15 with a .22 Long rifle conversion kit and single shot magazine adapter. It will be a lot slower to load, with worse ballitics, but it can be done if that's what you want to do.
The Armisport Enfield is a reasonable replica of an original muzzleloading arm, and is thus more traditional than a T/C.
All that said, a minie will shoot much more accurately than a round ball, at longer ranges with much greater retained energy. Shooting a roundball through a rifled/musket is sort of like
shooting an AR15 with a .22 Long rifle conversion kit and single shot magazine adapter. It will be a lot slower to load, with worse ballitics, but it can be done if that's what you want to do.
frou frou said:
In the purest of mid-19th century language, a
musket, like the .69-cal 1842 Springfield, was a smoothbore; a
rifled musket was any of several models of smoothbores that had been returned to an arsenal for the addition of rifling; and a
rifle musket was a long arm originally manufactured with a rifled barrel, such as the 1861 Springfield.
Further, a rifle was a long arm contemporaneous with all the above that had a shorter (about 33 inches), heavier barrel, i.e., the 1841 Harpers,Ferry (that's how the lockplates were punctuated) rifle.
The distinctions were important to arsenal record-keepers and remain important to collectors and historically minded people.
But language, like water, seeks to rest at the lowest level. So today, the common usage of musket generally refers to any muzzle-loading military arm in use before the development of metallic cartridge weaponry. That's why the North-South Skirmish Assn. musket match incorporates all rifled versions of the above.
Are we thoroughly cornfuzed yet??
:snore: :surrender: :shocked2: :yakyak: :hmm:
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Technically if the gun under discussion is an 1853 Enfield, it a rifle musket. (It was originally made with rifling)It has a 39" barrel with musket fairly thin barrel typical of a musket. If it's a copy of an 1858 Enfield it is a rifle, and has a heavier 33" rifled barrel. For accuracy an 1858 Enfield rifle is tough to beat. These guns will shoot a 5 shot score in the upper 40's in 50 and 100 yard competition. If you order a James River gun, clean off a shelf to display the medals you'll win with it.
For what it's worth, I saw in a video the other day, Black Powder Blastin', Joe Productions, a Library loan, that...
a round ball vs. a mini depends upon rifle twist. A slower twist, say 1 in 66" is meant to shoot patched balls, and a faster twist, say 1 in 32" is ideal for mini-balls. The rifles with a 1 in 48" twist are not particularly good or bad with either projectile. If I were in your boat, I'd do a little more reading, experiment at the range, and determine what twist your rifle has.
gus
a round ball vs. a mini depends upon rifle twist. A slower twist, say 1 in 66" is meant to shoot patched balls, and a faster twist, say 1 in 32" is ideal for mini-balls. The rifles with a 1 in 48" twist are not particularly good or bad with either projectile. If I were in your boat, I'd do a little more reading, experiment at the range, and determine what twist your rifle has.
gus
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While that is widely believed, and has appeared in print several times, it's not true. Daniel Whitacre custom muzzleloading barrels are designed to shoot minie balls competitively and they are rifled with traditional 3 groove progressive depth rifling of 1-turn in 72". These barrels will shoot a one hole, 10 shot group at 50 yards. At 100 yards they will shoot a 2" group, and stabalize a low velocity minie at ranges well beyond 200 yards.
The 5 groove progressive depth 1-48" rifling used by Parker Hale in their reproduction 1858 rifle and 1861 musketoon will also deliver comparable results.
Bobby Hoyt's 7 groove uniform depth 1 turn in 60" barrels will also deliver match winning accuracy.
I am unaware of a single original muzzleloading rifle, rifled/musket or rifle/musket that used a twist faster than 1-48" The .45 cal. Whitworth may have used something like 1-21" and the repro Parker Hale .451 Volunteers use a twist of 1-20". Historically however, there were hundreds of thousands more 58 caliber muskets produced than smallbore (.45 cal) target rifles.
The reproduction muskets are a very good value. Drop a custom barrel in the channel and you'll have a gun so accurate most roundball shooters won't let you play.
Yeah, what Iron Jim said.
The US Ordinance Dept. "invented that wheel" in the early 1850s, extensively testing rifling designs and twist rates. After throwing more lead downrange than I'll ever carry, those fellas determined that the best combo for the "Minie" (actually Burton) ball rifles was three lands, three grooves with a turn of 1 in 72 inches.
Yet I keep reading that minies shoot better out of "fast"-twist barrels. I don't pretend to know squat about what works with patched round balls, but I've been hangin' with Minie/Burton shooters long enough now to have observed that those largely forgotten ordinance folks pretty much got it right. That's why I had the builder put a Dan Whitacre 3/3, 1/72, progressively rifled barrel on my new Harper's Ferry '55 rifle. And ohhh! I wish I shot as good as it does!
Take it slow, and keep the glow.
The US Ordinance Dept. "invented that wheel" in the early 1850s, extensively testing rifling designs and twist rates. After throwing more lead downrange than I'll ever carry, those fellas determined that the best combo for the "Minie" (actually Burton) ball rifles was three lands, three grooves with a turn of 1 in 72 inches.
Yet I keep reading that minies shoot better out of "fast"-twist barrels. I don't pretend to know squat about what works with patched round balls, but I've been hangin' with Minie/Burton shooters long enough now to have observed that those largely forgotten ordinance folks pretty much got it right. That's why I had the builder put a Dan Whitacre 3/3, 1/72, progressively rifled barrel on my new Harper's Ferry '55 rifle. And ohhh! I wish I shot as good as it does!
Take it slow, and keep the glow.
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Many Thanks To Iron Jim and to Pappa Bear for clearing that fallacy up, you guys explained it much better than I could!
This Forum is absouletly Fantastic!
This Forum is absouletly Fantastic!
bart_anastasi
40 Cal.
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Also If I have it right at some point prior to the Civil War the US Army paid rifleman more money a month since I suppose they were thought to be worth more on the battle field.
With the start of that mess (and almost everyone being issued a rifle) somebody decided to change the name to cut peoples pay and save money.
With the start of that mess (and almost everyone being issued a rifle) somebody decided to change the name to cut peoples pay and save money.
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
Here in the UK we shoot Enfield rifles and Minie bullets in matches out to 600 yards with occassional forays to 800 yards. The Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket with its 1 in 78 twist doesn't appear to be disadvantaged even when competing with the later Short Rifles with their 1 in 48 twist.
Generalisation as to twist rate and projectile are invariably incorrect as has been explained above.
Whitworth's experiments commenced in 1855. He was restricted to the War Office requirement of a 530 grain bullet and service charge of 70 grains. He settled on an optimum bore size .45 with a twist of 1:20 using the War Office prescribed bullet and charge weights. With the founding of the Volunteer Movement and the NRA(GB) in 1859 and the subsequent interest in target shooting many gun makers followed Whitworth's lead. These rifles generally were of .45 cal and rifling twists similar to Whitworth, the form of rifling being the major difference; makers included Henry, Turner, Ingram, Kerr, Metford, Rigby and many others.
In terms of quantity these rifles would never approach anything like the number of military rifles produced, being somewhat specialised target rifles.
David
Generalisation as to twist rate and projectile are invariably incorrect as has been explained above.
Iron Jim Rackham said:
Whitworth's experiments commenced in 1855. He was restricted to the War Office requirement of a 530 grain bullet and service charge of 70 grains. He settled on an optimum bore size .45 with a twist of 1:20 using the War Office prescribed bullet and charge weights. With the founding of the Volunteer Movement and the NRA(GB) in 1859 and the subsequent interest in target shooting many gun makers followed Whitworth's lead. These rifles generally were of .45 cal and rifling twists similar to Whitworth, the form of rifling being the major difference; makers included Henry, Turner, Ingram, Kerr, Metford, Rigby and many others.
In terms of quantity these rifles would never approach anything like the number of military rifles produced, being somewhat specialised target rifles.
David
