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Mark Sluka

32 Cal.
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
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I have not shot any deer with my muzzleloader yet,
so i have no first hand experience with this.
I shoot roundball in 50 cal and i am wondering if i hit the shoulder of a whitetail would I get acceptable penetration?I always aim for the lungs but the shoulder is right there . I have read posts here before stating that they dont allways get complete penetration on broadside lung shots so i am curious about your opinions on this.
I also realize that distance ,size of deer and shot angle are always variable.
 
Mark S said:
I have not shot any deer with my muzzleloader yet,
so i have no first hand experience with this.
I shoot roundball in 50 cal and i am wondering if i hit the shoulder of a whitetail would I get acceptable penetration?I always aim for the lungs but the shoulder is right there . I have read posts here before stating that they dont allways get complete penetration on broadside lung shots so i am curious about your opinions on this.
I also realize that distance ,size of deer and shot angle are always variable.
Unless you have just the right angle, a broadside shoulder shot may well miss the lungs forward, and be too high for the heart.

Roundballs have very little hydrostatic shock value compared to a .30-06/165grn bullet at 2700fps so they pretty much need to go through something like the heart, double lungs, or spine.

If you'll think of a round ball basically killing like a broadhead does, it'll be your best guide.
 
You want to aim behind the front leg, and a bit low- behind the point of the " elbow " to hit the heart, which is low in the chest of a deer, as well as the bottom lobes of the lungs.

My favored shot is to be shooting at that spot but with the deer slightly quartering away from me, so that my ball breaks the leg or shoulder bone AFTER it penetrates the heart and lung area. You have to wait for such a shot, and you are not always going to get it. You need to know enough about Deer Anatomy, and the location of the lungs and heart from any angle to be able to pick the best shot that presents itself to you. There is no shame in letting a deer go past you if you don't have the right shot. There is considerable shame to be had for wounding a deer with a peripheral hit, that causes pain and injury, but not a quick death.

When we had deer check stations, those kind of mores were spread among all hunters, as everyone, sooner or later, stopped by the check station to see how many deer had been killed, where they were killed, how big, how many bucks, who got the littlest deer, etc. There was much socializing and talking about shots, shot selection, misses, and, when someone brought in a deer that had one or more broken legs, or an old wound, conversations about how such a thing would happen. Now that states are going to phone in reporting, that very important educational process at check staions, is gone. We will not be better for it's passing.
 
I'm a little leery of big bone penetration with RB on heavier game, and maybe even deer. A shot through the shoulder blade and ribs of a typical deer isn't likely to cause problems, but shoot low while chasing the heart with the heavier leg bone in the way, and I'm not so sure about it. All supposition because I haven't tried it.

I will say that the decent buck I shot this year was an eye-opener. Roughly 50 yards uphill face-on. I put the bullet right in the middle of the white throat patch and it went through the spine but stopped and inch or two beyond it without reaching the hide. This was a 54 cal RB on top of 100 grains of FF, and the ball flattened to about the size of a quarter. Dead deer instantly, for sure, but I had kind of expected to have a hole in the back of the neck and no bullet to recover.

I've never hit a big bone on moose or elk, but next time I hunt them I'm going to make darn sure I don't either. Ribs and shoulder blades will be no sweat, but I'm not going to count on the ball breaking a the leg bone below the shoulder blade, then continuing on to where I want it to go.

I'm with Roundball in guessing that the RB kills more like a broadhead with little or no hydrostatic shock, so it's important that it travels through a vital organ and causes lots of bleeding along the way.
 
I learned a hard lesson about shoulder shots this past season. It was an shoulder shot at a slight angle, only 54 yards. The buck went down, shook his head a little and then crawled off. I never found a drop of blood or the buck after many hours of searching.

Joel Lehman, Austin TX
 
The first deer that I killed with a round ball was about 1977...I was using a Bob Watts flinter in .45 caliber, powder charge was 75grs FFF...Range was 55 steps, ball went through the shoulder blade, spine, off shoulder blade and lodged in the hide on the off side...She dropped.
 
roundball said:
If you'll think of a round ball basically killing like a broadhead does, it'll be your best guide.

That says it all. I think of it that way no matter what I'm shootin' 'em with. Best bet for a sure, clean kill. :thumbsup:
 
I shoot a .50 with an '06 caseful of 3F, about 72 grs., have many pass throughs. only once did I have to track one about 1/4 mile due to a too-far back shot on moving deer but after it went aways it left blood trail I could follow. when I caught up with it the deer was laying down and nearly gone but I put another ball into from 30 yds. the rest dropped where they were or went a few bounds and collapsed. IMHO heart/lung junction shots are the best, after that neck shots for a quick kill.
 
I have taken a few deer with the 50 caliber roundball and was not impressed with it's power in my earlier years. This was due to poor shooting not the capabilities of the roundball.

In PA until recent years rb's were required by law in the late season and I spent many seasons hunting with a large group of flintlock hunters. It soon became apparent that the ball must be placed in the vitals to result in a quick kill. The rb works wonderful within it's capabilities.

Things I have learned over time are that magnum charges don' do much but flatten trajectory. I now use 80-90 grains and .495 ball. I sight in for 75 yards and from a rest will group well under 2". Wind has a very big impact on the flight of the rb. I try to limit shoots to 100 yards or less and don't shoot unless I have a good angle and a very stable sight picture.

It really doesn't matter what projectile one uses as long as it's of reasonable weight. Bigger diameter and heavier weight are better but there a plus/minus effects to that as well. The key is shot placement with roundballs and not power. Real black powder has it's limits as far as speed and power goes and nothing is going to change that. I like the rb for deer and they don't go far with a half inch hole in their heart. Learn to shoot very accurate and keep it within your/it's capabilities and you will have no trouble taking deer with them. Poor shooting will result in wounded deer and hours of tracking so keep that it mind when you drop the hammer on that flintlock. Anyone new to this sport that thinks they can just get a round in the deer without careful shot placement is in for a very sick feeling and lot's of frustration.

This is the most rewarding type of hunting there is. Enjoy the sport for what it is. My best advice is shoot, shoot, and shoot until it becomes second nature. Bp rifles take some time to learn and work up a good shooting load but spend the time to do it and you will be rewarded.
 
I haven't killed anything with a round ball yet. Missed two bucks this yr. One I think my ball must have rolled out somewhere along the line because I know I couldn't have missed. Anyway, from what I'm getting on all the posts above it seems to me a harder roundball..eg. hard cast.. can't do anything but help.
That's what I'm shooting home cast wheel weights and roofers lead mix...60/40 lead to ww.
I know with handgun hunting and low velocities hard cast is the way to go for many. Big hole..more blood for trailing, better penetration ..better blood on exit.
If 100 percent lead roundballs don't have any knockdown power..why go with pure lead?
 
You are right. But shotplacement is also with modern rifles necessary. what use will a .300 WinMag have when it is placed in the legs or the guttings. I think a PRB has less energy than all modern bullets or conicals, but because of its performance it gives the most of this energy to the deers body and this is about 800 J at 100 meters, enough for killing when placed right. The problem of modern bullets is that they are much to fast. They crash through the deer like a rocket with about 3000 J, but let only less energy in the body, because any deer can only absorbe a certain amount of energy. Rest of the energie is blowing out.
 
Hoyt said:
"...it seems to me a harder roundball..eg. hard cast.. can't do anything but help..."
:shocked2: Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion...100% pure soft lead is always best...every deer I've killed has been with a Hornady 100% lead ball.

The reference to bow hunting was simply to underscore the point that there is little hydrostatic shock compared to high velocity CF cartridges so shot placement was very important like with bowhunting...but you still want as much expansion as you can get from a soft lead ball.
 
BrowhBear: That shot through the neck vertebrae went through much more bone than you would expect to go through in anyother part of the body. A leg bone is not that strong, thick, or hard, as those vertebrae> Did you by any chance count how many vertebrae were penetrated by your .530 RB? And, I am sure it did flatten out to more than the size of a quarter going through all that bone! You took the shot that presented itself to you, and it was a killing shot. You should not be concerned beyond that fact. Mission Accomplished.

That 230 grain RB you are shooting will smash thorugh the leg bones, and ribs of any deer on this continent. It does a fair job on large Elk, too. If you are concerned about hitting heavy bones, on Elk, Moose, and Caribou, then by all means try shooting Hard Alloy balls. They do stay together for longer penetration, but they also shatter, split, and tear on impact, rather than flowing like your Pure lead ball does. An alloy ball will give you star like points, but not that even mushroom appearance in the spent ball that you get with a pure lead ball.

Do penetration tests on both kinds of balls. You will quickly see the little difference between the two, and get a better idea about how much more penetration you will get from a hard alloy ball.

If you continue to be concerned about the adequacy o using a .54 round ball on big game, then get a .58, or 62 caliber rifle and have at them. Both throw much more lead, and smash bones better, and drive deeper into flesh. Personally, I think the .54 is adequate for just about anything that walks on the continent.

Jim Bridger's .54 Hawken and possibles bag is in a museum out in Wyoming. His powder measure threw 50 grains of FFFg powder. He claimed, in his later years, after he had gone blind, that he used one measure ( 50 grains) of powder to shoot antelope, wolves, and whitetail deer; two measures( 100 grains) to shoot Elk, Moose, cougars, and black bear, and three measures when hunting grizzly Bear. Now, Old Gabe was known as a storyteller, and spun lots of " yarns " for reporters just to make money to support himself in his old age. You can believe what you want about how he hunted game. The measure has been examined and does throw 50 grains of FFFg, however.

Bridger was an excellent tracker, and spending a year or two in the mountains when the nearest supply source for more lead and powder was back in St. Joseph, Missouri, required him to be very careful with his powder and lead. He tried to recover his lead ball from animals as often as possible. So, his choice of loads may sound a bit light. He could track down a bear, or elk he shot and recover that ball, which he then could remelt and use again. Going back almost 1500 miles to get some more lead was just out of the question.
 
round ball said:
Hoyt said:
"...it seems to me a harder roundball..eg. hard cast.. can't do anything but help..."
:shocked2: Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion...100% pure soft lead is always best...every deer I've killed has been with a Hornady 100% lead ball.

The reference to bow hunting was simply to underscore the point that there is little hydrostatic shock compared to high velocity CF cartridges so shot placement was very important like with bowhunting...but you still want as much expansion as you can get from a soft lead ball.

It's pretty much common knowledge that hard cast round balls penetrate much better than 100 percent pure lead round balls. The whole thread is about how round balls don't penetrate through shoulders..etc. so why give up penetration by using a 100 percent lead ball for shock value if it doesn't work anyway. Do what a lot of hand gunners do and use hard cast for better penetration.
 
Hoyt said:
round ball said:
Hoyt said:
"...it seems to me a harder roundball..eg. hard cast.. can't do anything but help..."
:shocked2: Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion...100% pure soft lead is always best...every deer I've killed has been with a Hornady 100% lead ball.

The reference to bow hunting was simply to underscore the point that there is little hydrostatic shock compared to high velocity CF cartridges so shot placement was very important like with bowhunting...but you still want as much expansion as you can get from a soft lead ball.

It's pretty much common knowledge that hard cast round balls penetrate much better than 100 percent pure lead round balls. The whole thread is about how round balls don't penetrate through shoulders..etc. so why give up penetration by using a 100 percent lead ball for shock value if it doesn't work anyway. Do what a lot of hand gunners do and use hard cast for better penetration.
Use what you like of course...but the thread was also about at least two people with zero experience killing deer with a PRB...and thin skinned deer offer no problems for penetration of a lead round ball...most pass completely through as it is.

The point was also made NOT to use shoulder shots at all with round balls...and a harder ball is not going to make up for the fact that the ball may pass in front of the lungs and above the heart if entering the actual shoulder.

The advice was given in good faith from actual experience to ensure PRB deer hunting newbies understood reality...shoulder shots will often result in a lost deer...heart shots kill them dead every time.

Use what you want of course... :v
 
Mark S said:
I have not shot any deer with my muzzleloader yet,
so i have no first hand experience with this.
I shoot roundball in 50 cal and i am wondering if i hit the shoulder of a whitetail would I get acceptable penetration?I always aim for the lungs but the shoulder is right there . I have read posts here before stating that they dont allways get complete penetration on broadside lung shots so i am curious about your opinions on this.
I also realize that distance ,size of deer and shot angle are always variable.

My mistake..I guess..I thought the above was what the post was about..since he's the one who posted it.
 
Thanks Paul. I've thought about it quite a bit and my concern about the leg bones is more one of deflection than penetration, especially on animals larger than deer. I've seen enough of it on heavy animals (non ML) to try and factor it in here too. I'm a fan of lung shots rather than heart shots anyway, so it's pretty academic. I have zero concerns about broadside deflections on shoulder blades and ribs when aiming for the lungs. It's just down below there when the target is getting smaller and the bone is heavier and rounded.

My thinking is that if a RB deflects so very well on invervening brush, it must certainly be reacting to bone. Of course the small deflection angles that actually occur don't amount to much lateral movement at closer range (whether we're talking about a deer standing close behind a brush screen or a bone right over its chest) compared to lateral movement at the same angle but greater distances, so it probably moot. Just one more excuse for me to continue with the lung shots while giving me something to ponder between seasons.
 
Shoulder shots also waste a lot of meat, put the ball just above and behind the elbow. You might blow apart the heart and waste a rib or two.
 
ACtually, a soft lead ball will deflect much less in flesh and bone, than a hard cast one. Not that the animal will know the difference, of course. The angle is small. The fact that a soft lead ball mushrooms is what keeps it going in a straight line, rather than deflect on hitting bone. MY first deer took a .50 cal. ball through one rib, just behind the elbow, where it then passed through both lower lobes of the lungs, and then broke another rib going out the other side. Straight line. Old Doe. Developed bones. ( not the cartilage you see in yearlings.) It was clear that the ball mushroomed on hitting the first rib, just from the size of the hole in the rib. The hole in the rib on exit was huge, by comparison, and the primary wound channel was substantial.

Since accurate placement of a shot is so important with ML hunting, choosing a caliber for a hunting rifle is always going to be a compromise. I have about zero chance of ever hunting elk. So, I bought a .50 cal. rifle. If I had a chance to hunt elk, I would be looking for a .54 cal. rifle in a hurry. I already have a .62 cal. smoothbore, but that is really a 75 yd. gun. I would not want to limit my chances for a shot on Elk, using that gun, unless I just did not have any other choice.
 
Hoyt said:
Mark S said:
I have not shot any deer with my muzzleloader yet,
so i have no first hand experience with this.
I shoot roundball in 50 cal and i am wondering if i hit the shoulder of a whitetail would I get acceptable penetration?I always aim for the lungs but the shoulder is right there . I have read posts here before stating that they dont allways get complete penetration on broadside lung shots so i am curious about your opinions on this.
I also realize that distance ,size of deer and shot angle are always variable.

My mistake..I guess..I thought the above was what the post was about..since he's the one who posted it.
You and he both said you've never killed a deer with a PRB, meaning zero experience killing deer with a PRB...is that a mistake?
 

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