roundball size and patch thickness

[smokeyjoe]

I acquired a kit side lock rifle 20 or more years ago from an old man who assembled it from various parts from other kits. I've never tried to shoot it but just hung it on the wall because it looks cool. Now Im thinking "shoot it". I've pulled the nipple, cleared and cleaned the bore. I blew compressed air from nipple to bore and bore to nipple. I am confident that it is "safe". The old fella told me it was 45 caliber so I put a caliper in the muzzle and it measures .440. I called Midway for info on ball size and was told that Midway carries a .440 ball. She apparently didn't understand the concept of patched roundball. When I explained to the young lady that a patch would be required she sounded a bit confused and told me to seek the advice from a gunsmith. Very disappointing.
So that leads to the question, what ball size and patch thickness should I use for starter load? I dont need to shoot great velocities or super accuracy I just want to poke paper at around 50 yards or so.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[longcruise]

First question: did you measure the bore land to land? Groove to groove? Or even groove to land? Actually, that was three questions in any case with it answered better advice can be given.

 

[centershot]

Is the caliber stamped on the barrel? If it's stamped "45" then a .440" ball is correct. Your patch thickness can vary from .010" up to 0.17" or so. Start with .015" and see if it works for you. Your measurement seems to indicate a 45 caliber bore, but, it might also be a 44 caliber. If you measured land to land, it's a 45.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The caliber stamped on the barrel is merely a suggestion. You really should measure the land to land diameter and the groove to groove diameter. Hopefully you have an even number of lands and grooves. A starting ball size is 0.010" less than the land to land diameter. Subtract the land to land diameter from the groove to groove diameter and divide by 2 to determine groove depth. The patch thickness should be the groove depth +0.010". A lubricated patch will compress to fill the grooves and imprint on the ball. Use 100% cotton patching. I avoid the prelubed patches. Prelubricated patches will deteriorate on the shelf and that's not good for accuracy on target.

 

[smokeyjoe]

Thanx to all of y'all for your responses. I just re-measured from land to groove and it is .445. It has 3 wide grooves. With that said a .445 ball will not enter the muzzle. Too tight. I see ball advertised at .433 and I wonder if that will work with the proper patch. And if so what would that patch thickness be? Are there other size ball that I could use? Also would ffg work or should I go with fffg?
Grenadier1758, where do you find non lubed patches?
I am not totally unexperienced with ML's. I shoot and hunt with a modern in line and 209 primers and I also occasionally shoot a Pietta .36 navy colt.
Thanx again

 

[R Ellis]

It has already been said to buy the balls .10 under bore size and add a .10 patch so do that as said... 2 or 3 f will both work.... almost all m/z loader suppliers have non lubed patches

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Buy or borrow some round balls .440 or .445. Buy some pillow ticking at Joann's or Walmart. Tear off a strip of the ticking, grease it up or soak it with spit and start a ball into the muzzle. Cut off the excess with a sharp knife. See how hard it is to load and how it shoots. Don't get too complicated about it. Oh, don't forget to put some powder in the barrel first, probably 50 or 60 grains of 2 or 3 FG, what ever you can find.

 

[smokeyjoe]

T

It has already been said to buy the balls .10 under bore size and add a .10 patch so do that as said... 2 or 3 f will both work.... almost all m/z loader suppliers have non lubed patches

Thanx R. and Cisco Kid,
I think I got it. kindaSorta. Like I said I found balls at .433. Start there.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanx to all of y'all for your responses. I just re-measured from land to groove and it is .445. It has 3 wide grooves. With that said a .445 ball will not enter the muzzle. Too tight. I see ball advertised at .433 and I wonder if that will work with the proper patch. And if so what would that patch thickness be? Are there other size ball that I could use? Also would ffg work or should I go with fffg?
Grenadier1758, where do you find non lubed patches?
I am not totally unexperienced with ML's. I shoot and hunt with a modern in line and 209 primers and I also occasionally shoot a Pietta .36 navy colt.
Thanx again

Hey, @smokeyjoe

Welcome to the Muzzleloading Forum.

It sounds as if you have tried a .445" ball and it would not go. Three wide grooves suggest a repurposed military barrel. It would be good if you could show some pictures of the rifle and the bore.

Modern breechloading rifles in non-metric calibers consider bore diameter to be the major diameter, bottom of groove to bottom of groove. With muzzleloaders, we use the minor diameter, top of land to top of land.

I think the best place to start would be to contact a machine shop and ask if they have plug gauges. If they do, take the barrel in and have them use the plug gauges to get the bore diameter, land to land. It's going to be hard to get an accurate measure with calipers. Even slugging the barrel, with three wide grooves, may make getting an accurate measure difficult. Plug gauges are the way to go in this case.

Once you have the bore diameter you can make a better determination of ball size. Most people start with a ball .010" under bore size. I like a smaller ball, around .015" less than bore size for easier loading. You can experiment with patch thickness to get a combination that loads easily and shoots well.

Lots of places sell patches. I would suggest that you try RMC-OX Yoke or Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies. They have a good selection and if you call them they may be able to advise you. If you want to use rags or scraps of fabric from home for patches, it needs to be strong material and make sure you use all cotton or linen. No synthetics. The heat from the burning powder will make synthetic fabrics leave a nasty deposit in your barrel.

I'm sure FFg powder would work, but FFFg would probably be a better choice for that bore size. You can use Crisco or a similar shortening for a patch lubricant.

Hopefully, some of this will help you get started. Once you put a few shots downrange and get to know that rifle better, you can start refining your ammunition.

Good luck! We are interested in how you do with your rifle.

Notchy Bob

 

[Grenadier1758]

Having three lands does make measuring the land to land diameter difficult. Since the land to groove diameter is 0.445" the 0.445" lead ball has to engrave on the lands. It won't fit at the muzzle and will be hard to load. A quick test is to see if a 7/16" drill bit (use the smooth shaft end) which is 0.4375" will fit. An eleven mm drill bit is 0.433". Otherwise, @smokeyjoe will need to visit a machine shop to try pin gauges to get an accurate measurement. I do believe that a 0.433" diameter ball and 0.015" thick patching may be acceptable to load with reasonable tightness. Unlubricated patches can be found at the local gun shop or pillow ticking can be found at most fabric stores. Patches cut into 1 1/4" squares will work. Lubricate with a mix of 50% water and 50% dish washing soap for a patch lubricant to dampen the patch. Use black powder or a black powder substitute powder measured for a volume to grains charge. Start at about 50 grains volume measure.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Buy, buy, buy.

Bought a Lee .440 mold 20 years ago for $20.
Patches, Buffalo Arms sells patch cutters. $4 at a fabric store can set you up for a few years.
I do not moisten the patches until the day before I shoot.
Back then they do not buy, they made, made, made.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Even with shallow grooves of 0.005" a patched 0.440" ball with any thickness of patching will be very tight to load in @smokeyjoe's rifle. The 0.433 ball is a better choice to try.

 

[smokeyjoe]

Having three lands does make measuring the land to land diameter difficult. Since the land to groove diameter is 0.445" the 0.445" lead ball has to engrave on the lands. It won't fit at the muzzle and will be hard to load. A quick test is to see if a 7/16" drill bit (use the smooth shaft end) which is 0.4375" will fit. An eleven mm drill bit is 0.433". Otherwise, @smokeyjoe will need to visit a machine shop to try pin gauges to get an accurate measurement. I do believe that a 0.433" diameter ball and 0.015" thick patching may be acceptable to load with reasonable tightness. Unlubricated patches can be found at the local gun shop or pillow ticking can be found at most fabric stores. Patches cut into 1 1/4" squares will work. Lubricate with a mix of 50% water and 50% dish washing soap for a patch lubricant to dampen the patch. Use black powder or a black powder substitute powder measured for a volume to grains charge. Start at about 50 grains volume measure.

Thanx Grenadier1758. I tried a 7/16 drill bit shank end and it fit with just a little bit of play. I have an old 100% cotton sheet I've been using for rags and it miked at .010. I put a piece of sheet over the muzzle and the drill bit fits very snuggly into the bore. I am gonna order some .433 RB and giver her a go. I'll let you know how it works out.
I dug out some other stuff that I got from the old man I bought the rifle from. I have a bag of Poly-Patch sabots for .440 RB and a couple of Thompson Center moulds. One for .440 RB and the other .50 Maxi-Ball. I'm gonna stay away from the Poly-Patch, I dont want to use plastic in the bore and I'll never use the moulds. Also I got a powder horn and a .45 pistol that I did shoot way back then. The rifle, pistol and powder horn looks very nice on the cabin wall. I got the bug to shoot 'em.
Thanx agian.

 

[smokeyjoe]

*UPDATE*
I finally got all my stuff together to shoot this rifle. .433 RB, 010 cotton patch with Bore Butter. First shot 50 grains 3f at 15 yards printed 6 oclock of a 2" 10 ring. WOOHOO... 2nd shot 3/4" right of 1st shot. WOHHO 2. 3rd shot 60 Grns 3f was 1" above 1st shot. Success feels good. Moved the target out to 25 yds and continued shooting. Some old Remington caps misfired so I switched to CCI. More caps started misfiring. Frustration set in and I called it a day. Yesterday I had more misfires than fires. I think light hammer strikes. I noticed the halfcock has moved closer to the nipple so now it is less than 1/4" from nipple. Like I said previously this is a compilation gun that was put together from various old kits of unknown manufacturers. Dadgummit! I gotta get this sorted out but not quite sure of next step. I am considering removing the lockset and checking the spring but afraid I wont get it put back right. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[necchi]

Like I said previously this is a compilation gun that was put together from various old kits of unknown manufacturers.

Photo's will help us identify what your dealing with.
There are a lot of problems that can arise with many guns, us having a basic idea of what you have will help
There are basic steps involved with any of these guns, and honestly (without malice) having knowledge of in-lines is no use at all with traditional.
(It's like having a carburetor and asking how to change the injectors)

 

[French Colonial]

*UPDATE*
I finally got all my stuff together to shoot this rifle. .433 RB, 010 cotton patch with Bore Butter. First shot 50 grains 3f at 15 yards printed 6 oclock of a 2" 10 ring. WOOHOO... 2nd shot 3/4" right of 1st shot. WOHHO 2. 3rd shot 60 Grns 3f was 1" above 1st shot. Success feels good. Moved the target out to 25 yds and continued shooting. Some old Remington caps misfired so I switched to CCI. More caps started misfiring. Frustration set in and I called it a day. Yesterday I had more misfires than fires. I think light hammer strikes. I noticed the halfcock has moved closer to the nipple so now it is less than 1/4" from nipple. Like I said previously this is a compilation gun that was put together from various old kits of unknown manufacturers. Dadgummit! I gotta get this sorted out but not quite sure of next step. I am considering removing the lockset and checking the spring but afraid I wont get it put back right. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I noticed the halfcock has moved closer to the nipple so now it is less than 1/4" from nipple.

If this is so either the half **** notch or the sear, one of the two is wearing very quickly.
Taking the lock off is pretty easy for anyone, just unscrew the one or two screws that hold it in and wiggle it out.

Here is the important part, then post some pictures of the lock on this thread and there are people here that will be able to probably tell you who made the lock, how old it is, what the problem is and the political affiliation of the gunsmith who made it.

And a young guy would say, Hey necchi, what's a carburetor?

 

[smokeyjoe]

Thanx necchi and French Colonial. Ive included pics of half **** and removed lock. It was a lot easier than I feared...... I cleaned it all with some rubbing alcohol and applied some gun grease very sparingly at all metal to metal pivoting points. Im not sure which parts are called what . I worked the action parts a good bit then wiped off as much grease as I could. I popped several caps from CCI, Remington and Garrett Arms of Norfolk, Virginia. One failed to pop but I think it may be old and defective from Garrett Arms. If the problem of misfired caps has cleared up I will clean the lock again with alcohol to remove the grease and apply some powder graphite
The only markings on this piece is "JAPAN" on the inside of the lock and "JAPAN PR 0015" on the revcr. I hope someone can ID the manufacturer and kit (or kits).
Thanx again and looking forward to hearing back from yall.

 

[necchi]

Miroku Ultra hi Kentucky,
https://www.icollector.com/Miroku-Ultra-Hi-Kentucky-Rifle_i33911340Miroku always made some darn good barrels.

The lock needs "oil" not grease or graphite.
There seems to be a serious drag mark on the inside of the lock from the tumbler that could be slowing things down

 

[Grenadier1758]

Miroku manufactured and sold under the Ultra Hi brand. It was designed as an entry level, low cost firearm and sold during the American Bicentennial as an occasional shooter and decorative wall hangar. The barrels were generally of decent quality and could be fairly accurate on target. The lock is very simple as it has no internal bridle to support the tumbler and sear lever. These can work fairly well and as @smokeyjoe discovered, a good cleaning and lubricating (oil on the things that turn and grease on the things that slide) seems to have restored the lock to once again set off percussion caps.

 

[smokeyjoe]

Thank you necchi and Grenadier1758,
Well, its a good looking wall hanger....... Its been a challenge to say the least. I fired it yesterday and it started out OK but started misfiring caps again so I took the lock off again and checked it over pretty well. The tumbler IS canting a bit and dragging on the inside of the plate. I put a vice grip on the spring and removed it, removed the hammer and tumbler and cleaned them. Then I sighted down the length of the plate and it is slightly bent inward toward the muzzle end. I reassembled the lock and noticed when the spring was re-installed it slightly cants the tumbler downward again causing it to drag at the bottom. I believe the bent plate is the culprit here....A replacement lock is $50 online....Maybe..
I also noticed the front sight slips to the right slightly with each shot. I drove it back and it shot center again but each subsequent shot it walked to the right about 3/4". I guess I could center it and peen the dovetail but at this point ....maybe.
I also shot this Diker .45. Fun to shoot but without a front sight its just a belly buster...
Thanks guys... if you have any more suggestions please send 'em. and I will ....maybe ....