Schooling the Fools

[zimmerstutzen]

Wheel lock, flint lock, needle fire, or center fire are all just forms of ignition. Accuracy comes from the barrel sights and the shooter. Not from the ignition, although some are more amenable to those with lessor skills.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Not only is percussion a faster ignition it is also more accurate!

So explain to me exactly how a tiny percussion cap changes the accuracy of the gun. If you say it does your a special kind of person. All the cap does is ignite the main charge nothing more nothing less. It has zero to do with accuracy, is it in the bore, rifling, have anything to do with the patching or ball, nope all it does is ignite the powder. If you were to lock a flinter, percussion, and a CF rifle into a solid shooting bench where the rifle wouldn't move in theory all the bullets should hit very close together, because it takes out the human error. This is the reason an experienced flintlock shooter can out shoot guy with scopes and cf rifle, or percussion guns. Now flinters take a specal skill to learn to shoot and many aren't disciplined enough to take the time to learn. But that doesn't make then less accurate just the shooter sucks with a flintlock, but may shoot better with a percussion because its a different weapon. Learning to shoot a flinter is a very humbling experience, I have watched top shooter literally tap out and give up. But less accurate, no its the shooter. If ya wanna see proof come on over a state over to Kansas sometime I and my flinter crew will be happy to show ya the event I originally posted about the first 5 targets were a straw, golf tee, lollipop, a playing card, and a feather all had to be cut completely in half at 20 yards. I hit 4 of 5 with a 45 cal flinter it doesn't get more accurate then that. Unless your talking about my buddy matching 4 of 5 with a 40 cal flinter. Im not trying to bad talk ya but your spewing untrue facts that an uneducated reader might take as gospil. Once again ignition (flint/cap/209 primer) has nothing to do with accuracy it just ignites the main charge.

 

[longcruise]

I must disagree. Yes, they are all just forms of ignition but the cap being faster it sends the ball on the way with less of a change in the sight picture before the ball exits the muzzle. Many flint shooters can outshoot many cap shooters all day long, but in general the cap ignition will be inherently more accurate than the flint.

best illustrated by the effects of just a minor hang fire in cap or flint. If the shooter does not have exceptional follow through skills, the hang fire ball will leave the muzzle a bit off target and it will show in the score. The faster ignition of the cap will keep the ball on target better than the flint.

 

[M. De Land]

The reason percussion ignition is more accurate is because of consistency of ignition pressure it allows. The powder is ignited with a more focused, consistency of brisance than is possible with flint ignition.
Yes, by all means, bolt several test barrels to a machine rest and ignite them first with flint than again by percussion and you will find the percussion ignition will produce better overall accuracy.
The more consistent the ignition the smaller the spread of high and low shot velocity dispersion, hence better grouping capacity.
It was also found in the "hay" day of percussion precision shooting that the softest (lowest powered) primers produced the best accuracy,this because it produced the lowest velocity spread measured in a term called Standard Deviation or SD.
It's a physics thing totally out side the realm of how steady one can hold a fire arm. Mike D.

 

[M. De Land]

I couldn't agree more, I say if you can shoot a "flinter" well than you can shoot any other gun as well or better! Still,facts are stubborn things and the truth remains true wither or not we want to believe it. Mike D.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Road apples! It boils down to the shooter. It is EASIER for a lesser shooter with a percussion to do better than he could do with a flint. But that is due to the shooter's shortcomings, NOT the ignition system. I can convert my bench rifle from flint to percussion and there is no improvement down range.

 

[M. De Land]

That test may hold up with one gun although I doubt it, especially from a machine rest. It most certainly will not hold up in a thorough test with multiple barrels.
Physic are physics and they bow to no man! If you flatten the velocity spread than the you shrink the grouping.
Barrel harmonics also play a part for the same reason.
The shooter with the more inherent accuracy potential has more working for him than does the one with less, given equal ability. Mike D.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Regaurdless of ignition time, the fundamentals of marksmanship are always the same. Breath, relax, aim, squeeze, follow through. That does not change so ignition time in the hands of a goodmarksman does not matter. I guess we will agree that we wont agree and call it what it is. Its not the rifle that executs the shot its the shooter the ball goes where its pointed.

 

[stinkyfeet]

I have shot my gun through a chronograph with the target load 6 shots in all. The fastest was 1610 fps the slowest was 1604 fps. Keep in mind this is by using powder measured by weight not volume. Thats not a bad for the "excessive" change in muzzle pressure and pressure lost out of the barrel from a flinter as someone posted. I didn't understand the variance in lost pressure coming out of the barrel concept. The torch hole is the same size from shot to shot, as is the hole on a nipple so where is the variance in lost pressure come from. The fact is it doesn't change much or else the ballistics would be all over the board. Is there lost pressure yes, with the same load time after time in the barrel, and using the same priming charge in the pan. How can there be a variance in pressure lost. :idunno: :idunno: :idunno:

 

[M. De Land]

Why do you suppose percussion ignition totally supplanted flint ignition in precision shooting except as a separate event.
Then as now the bench rest and long range shooters lead the way in accuracy advancements.
It would not have had flint ignition been able to compete with it.
Read Ned Roberts book if you haven't and it will explain much of this. Mike D.

 

[M. De Land]

Sorry, I got sentence two and three out of order. They should be in each other place. Mike D.

 

[M. De Land]

That would be excellent consistency if it will hold up through three to five, ten shot strings , twenty shot would be better for a SD sampling and it was recorded with an Ohler 35-P or it's accuracy equivalent that will calculate SD from the extreme spread figures.
Single digit SD's are what long range shooters strive for in a good load.
Long range shooting exaggerates velocity spreads making the cone of dispersion on target more vertically noticeable.
Same is true at short range, it just doesn't show up as extreme. Mike D.

 

[longcruise]

The only time it boils down to the shooter is when the compared shooters are shooting the exact same rifle.

at the ranges we shoot at, SD and extreme spread are pretty much meaningless!

 

[gwalker]

2-Tall, don't forget the black powder being used. In such tests, it would be advantageous to use black powder from the same lot in order to minimize any variance in black powder composition. Also, think of the loading procedures. From shot to shot, the shooter should strive for uniform seating of the patched ball on the powder charge, as this could, at least, partially explain differences in pressures including burning rates of the powder. Minimizing variables within the realm of the shooter can be difficult but so can how the shooter loads the rifle from shot to shot. My suggestion is that we not over-emphasize the stupidity of some shooters that we are all likely to encounter at the local gun range or at scheduled events; those people will always haunt us like burrs under a saddle. For me, I just enjoy shooting my Pennsylvania Long Rifle (Lancaster School, flintlock) because it is very relaxing for me in a very stressful world (and I go shooting, prairie dog hunting, or rabbit hunting two or three times a week). I've been shooting the same rifle for over 30 years now and no longer worry about winning, beating someone at the range, or trying to prove to them some misconception they may have. Life is just too short. At some point in time they will pinch the *** of a strange mule while standing behind it and we'll all have a good laugh.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Malarky! You constantly reason that Shooters flinch more with one but then illogical reason that the ignition is to blame. As I said above accuracy is found in the barrel, the sights and the shooter. Don't give ya a ya da about so ranges. 300 yds is the same there as here. The laws of physics aren't suspended by crossing into central or mountain time. I have yet to see a gun flinch. That is the sole province of the shooter. When you find a gun that flinches, it is probably one of those that kills people all on its own with no shooter involved. Let me know so we can alert the media.

 

[TFoley]

Malarky! You constantly reason that Shooters flinch more with one but then illogical reason that the ignition is to blame. As I said above accuracy is found in the barrel, the sights and the shooter. Don't give ya a ya da about so ranges. 300 yds is the same there as here. The laws of physics aren't suspended by crossing into central or mountain time. I have yet to see a gun flinch. That is the sole province of the shooter. When you find a gun that flinches, it is probably one of those that kills people all on its own with no shooter involved. Let me know so we can alert the media.

^

This. :thumbsup:

tac, owner of fifteen non-flinching rifles

 

[fleener]

ignition source can and does have an impact on accuracy. Switching between types of caps or primers does change the accuracy of a rifle.

Fleener

 

[stinkyfeet]

ignition source can and does have an impact on accuracy. Switching between types of caps or primers does change the accuracy of a rifle.

Fleener

Well I only use cci mag number 11's in my percussion guns, and the same priming load everytime. I am a pretty solid it works I am not changing things kind of guy and believe in quality through repetition. I guess 15 plus years in the army taught me this.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I'll agree that changing caps can change POI. That does not follow that it also changes accuracy.

Loading consistency is the key to optimum accuracy. Changing caps is not consistent.

Just as there are regular 22 Rf cartridges and special match grade 22 RFs, there is a difference in the consistency and quality control. Mixing 40 yr old caps with fresh caps would be a similar lack of consistency in loading. And when it comes down to lack of consistency, who is responsible? Oh that's right, the SHOOTER.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The faster the lock time, lighter (or more balanced) the moving parts in the firing sequence, and shorter the barrel, the less time the projectile has between trigger break and exiting to be moved off of POA when the trigger broke. Other forces can contribute to moving off of POA too. Ever shoot a Thompson SMG for accuracy in SA with it's 2 pound open bolt slamming forward to strip the round from the magazine, chamber and fire the round in the same action before? Good luck. Maybe the GUN could hold MOA accuracy, but I guarantee that a PERSON can't hold it.