Schuetzen - Rio musket caps, no go on a T/C

[Stantheman86]

I finally got 500 Schuetzen musket caps from an online store, take my Thompson/Center New Englander with the T/C musket cap nipple to the range.....most of them didn't even pop, when they did, they worked fine.....

Luckily I also had CCI musket caps with me so I could actually shoot the thing, along with some other guns....

I'm thinking the Schuetzen caps didn't fit right on the t/c nipple, it seemed the first hammer hit seated them but by then the primer material had been knocked out.

I'll probably just go back to #11 caps and use the CCI Magnum or Remington caps I can at least get from my local sources. The nearest place that sells musket caps is an hour away and I don't even know what brands they stock.

Good thing I brought my .17 HMR Single Six with me so I didn't waste a range trip.

 

[davidmc62]

What kind of powder are you using and were you having a hard time using #11 caps originally? Number 11 caps should do just fine with real black powder, not so much with some of the other propellant brands.

 

[Stantheman86]

Right now I have the Graf and Sons 2f, I just thought that I'd try the Musket cap nipple for ease of use and reliability, and those Accu-Shot 209 nipples are a PITA.....

I'm not playing tag with the FedEx man again with that stupid adult signature for caps,or pay a hazmat fee.... I'll just keep the Musket cap nipple as a backup and get a Treso #11 nipple , since I like not having to order caps online.

 

[Stantheman86]

On the plus side I found that I can shoot pretty much all day with .480 round balls and .010 Mountain Man prelubed patches ....15 shots without cleaning, decent "combat" accuracy when the cci caps did their job..

I have a Skinner peep sight on it, that was recommended by a member here, I love it. It's for a T/C Contender but the barrel diameter is the same on a New Englander and one screw hole lines up with the rear sight hole.....it held but I need to get a 2nd one tapped.

 

[Zonie]

There really isn't any fixed "standard" that defines the size and tolerance for percussion caps.

That results in #11 caps from one company being slightly larger or smaller than the same #11 caps from another company.

If the percussion cap is just slightly smaller than it should be for a nipple, it will often not seat all the way down when it is placed on the cone.

This often will result in a failure to fire on the first blow of the hammer which just ends up fully seating the cap. Usually the second hammer blow will fire the cap.

If this is happening and you have enough of the ill fitting caps on hand to justify the work, you might want to file the nipple cone slightly down in size.

I use a variable speed electric hand drill and lightly chuck it on the outside body of the nipple.
Placing the drill on my left, pointed towards my right, I then rest a small metal cutting flat file on the cone.

Slowly starting the drill, I apply a light downward pressure on the file while moving it forward.

After one stroke, I stop the drill and try the non-fitting cap.
If it doesn't seat easily, I'll run the drill and file the cone again until it does.

Remember, a very small amount of metal removed can make a big difference so, don't get carried away with your filing.

Also, I don't recommend chucking on the nipple threads because that can damage them and if they are damaged they can mess up the threads in the gun nipple hole.

 

[Griz44Mag]

So why would you want to use a musket cap on a rifle that was designed for #11 caps???? Especially if there was no problem with ignition before you changed out the nipple?????

 

[Stantheman86]

It does not reliably work with #11 caps and the factory nipple.....probably why I was able to buy it in "lightly fired" condition for $200 . I got a New Englander with finicky ignition someone didn't feel like dealing with.


Right now I have the 309 Primer adapter in it and I'll use it to blow off the several pounds of 777 I have, and I have 1,000 309 primers (much less $$ than caps if that matters to anyone )

 

[mooman76]

777 is harder to light than some other powders and especially the real stuff. Sometimes a better nipple like the Hot Shot type nipple helps allot. If it were me I'd either take the current nipple and like do like Zonie recommended to get proper fit or buy another to make fit. Having a few extra nipples is a good thing to have and a cheap fix.

 

[davidmc62]

Here is part of the issue "in my opinion", Use regular "real black powder" and normal caps. THIS IS "THE" TECHNOLOGY THE GUN WAS DESIGNED AROUND IN THE PREVIOUS CENTURIES. I hear and see all the time people wanting and striving for modern ballistics and performance out of a gun designed around 17th, 18th and 19th century technology. And to top it off, the traditional side lock "production" guns put out by "all" the current makers are mostly not built to high performance tolerances. So why do you expect it to perform like your Winchester 700 or what ever. this is only my rant and opinion, and not intended to offend all the "minute of deer" hunters out there, but so many times, I think people ask and expect things from their rifles that they just cant deliver, so they get disgruntled and give up. I dont think any traditional side lock muzzle loader ought to be shot with anything other than what the gun was designed to shoot originally..in the last century. Alot of information was tested, learned and practiced back then and your not too likely to improve on whats already been done.

 

[necchi]

I hear and see all the time people wanting and striving for modern ballistics and performance out of a gun designed around 17th, 18th and 19th century technology.

Your right.
But most all of us went through that phase,, some how trying to improve the ignition system
Always looking for a way to make the old style guns better with powders, or bullets,, some how knowing that "if I do this",, "I will have reliability because the old way isn't going to work".
Not much I can say,, cause I done it too.
I kinda feel sorry for the OP, a brick of 209 primers to burn through?
Ouch, That's a long time before learnin. :idunno:

 

[davidmc62]

Well, I may have been a little obnoxious (didn't mean to be) in my post. There are plenty of modern muzzle loading rifles designed to be shot with modern propellants, long bullets and hot primers to set it off. And I am guilty also of wanting more out of my traditional arms. But then I started reading Maj. Ned Roberts great book and started to read about all the old fellows who had already pushed those limits. That's when I realized you have to look hard to find any truly new ideas today in Black Powder firearms that hasn't already been done in the past.

 

[Stantheman86]

It's a T/C so it's far from traditional.....not looking to re-invent the wheel just looking for some fun range shooting. I have Pyrodex and 777 from years ago I'm trying to burn up. I don't feel like I'm committing a sin using fake black powder in sporting rifles that vaguely resemble Hawkens , with coil mainsprings and cast parts....I will strive to use real Black in the New Englander but in my scoped Renegade, if I said I would never pick up 777 and use it in that again I'd be lying.

I went through most of a pound of 777 and about 50 or so of the 209 primers with the New Englander, however my Treso #11 nipple arrived so I'm ditching the 209 adapter.

When I receive my Parker-Hales not a single grain of replica powder will ever go down those bores.

In the end, to each their own....I'll bet some guys who identify as "purists" in the muzzleloading hobby have one or two chopped up i.e. "sporterized" military rifles hiding in the closet that "purists" of that part of the shooting hobby would be aghast at.....

If someone wants to buy a Franken-Hawken with a modern scope , use Blackhorn and a 209 adapter with Powerbelt bullets they can have at it, it ain't bothering me or anyone else.

 

[necchi]

I've used T7 almost exclusively for 10yrs or better. The best ignition combination I've found has been Knight RedHot nipples and RWS #11 caps in all the TC, CVA and Investarms rifles I own.
Trouble is Hodgdon has become very proud of their T7 these last few years, the stuff is going for 27$+ around here,, a far cry from the 15 it was years back.
Please don't become disheartened by our comments, it's just musket caps belong on muskets and 209's belong in shot-shell,, neither one is "hotter", they just have more volume and more volume just means more gunk as well as fire,, they're simply designed to ignite a different type of powder in a different kind of chamber and firearm then our rifles are.
To help ensure ignition with the TC's be sure to keep the fire channel free of any oils,, and please do take the lock out every so often to clean and add fresh lube to it.
A clean and properly lubed lock with the TC's is important.
(all of'm actually, folks tend to ignore the lock)

 

[davidmc62]

Stantheman, your right, there are many different ways to shoot these old traditional guns. My opinions are just that, mine and I meant no offence to you or others by them. I have alot of shooting companions that shoot modern powders and such so I understand the interest in reaching out to see what it could do with... At the end of the day it is all about having fun and making the rifle go bang. Have a wonderful evening and a better tomorrow and "get out there shooting".
Cheers,
David Mc

 

[Colonial Boy]

Besides which, "The smell of black powder is sweet and the hickory ramrod hath charm".

 

[Pete44ru]

Once upon a time, I installed a T/C Musket nipple on my T/C .54 Renegade, but had to slightly shorten the nipple's cone to get reliable ignition.

I have no knowledge/experience with Schutzen musket caps, buying caps online - 200 of which lasted me a loooong time w/o issue one.

 

[Rifleman1776]

There really isn't any fixed "standard" that defines the size and tolerance for percussion caps.

That results in #11 caps from one company being slightly larger or smaller than the same #11 caps from another company.

Amen to that. :cursing:
I have some ca. 1970 Navy Arms Caps that are size #1075. :hmm:
This is why it is wise to buy as many as you can afford at one time once you find what works best on your rifle. Same can be said of the nipple. Buy several of the same type at one time and keep on hand.

 

[Mad Professor]

Load up some shot gun shells with the 209 primers.